109: early AK hand

[wuwei]

This is the 6th hand. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of getting tables open and stuff and haven't really seen any hands he has played thus far.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 (t950)
Hero (t970)
MP3 (t975)
CO (t920)
Button (t1045)
SB (t2000)
BB (t1065)
UTG (t910)
UTG+1 (t1165)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t55</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t95</font>, Hero calls t40.

Flop: (t197.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t197.50) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, Hero calls t150.

River: (t497.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB pooshes for 835 , Hero...

loads up the gun because he was slowplaying and just got flushed?

[ QUOTE ]
loads up the gun because he was slowplaying and just got flushed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. On and entirely OT note, I have the characters for wu wei tattooed on my shoulder blade. So I appreciate the nick of the OP

I like the check on the flop. I don't like the flat call on the turn.

It seems like you played it this way to get a push on the river. So you have to call.... If you had some other plan, I think you should have raised the turn.

[wuwei]

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loads up the gun because he was slowplaying and just got flushed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. On and entirely OT note, I have the characters for wu wei tattooed on my shoulder blade. So I appreciate the nick of the OP

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. If I was ever going to get a tattoo, that would be beautiful.

What range of hands do you guys put him on that he makes the flush here? Is he min reraising out of the BB with middle suited connectors?

[lastsamurai]

I put him on AK or higher PP. probaly caught trips on the flop.

[Deuce2High]

Bet the flop here. If you lost this hand it was most likey to AA,QQ,AQ.

I think even if I would have played this hand as terribly as it was played I would still call the river.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the check on the flop. I don't like the flat call on the turn.

It seems like you played it this way to get a push on the river. So you have to call.... If you had some other plan, I think you should have raised the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty much echoes my thoughts as I was thinking about this hand after the fact. I played the hand passively to extract value from KK, QQ, JJ, and other hands drawing to 2 or 3 outs. However, I did not have a good plan ahead of time on how to deal with a river push.

With the big push on the river, it almost seems like he either made the flush or is representing the flush.

*shrugs*

To tell you the truth, Im not sure what to do here. He COULD have AQ, but you never know.

Yikes.

[mosdef]

i don't see the made flush here. what suited cards does he reraise (MIN reraise in fact) preflop with? AJs? i don't know...

the min-reraise screams high pocket pair to me. that's why i don't have a problem with wuwei's checking on the flop since it opens up the possibility of actually sucking value out of those hands.

on the other hand i find it odd that he would shove the river with a set or two pair after the third heart falls. the bet suggests a more vunerable hand. i will hazard a guess of KK or JJ and he pushes to try to use the third heart as a scare card to fold aces. i don't see him pushing for value with a made flush or pushing 2 pair or a set into the flush card like that. looks like a crying call to me.

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see the made flush here. what suited cards does he reraise (MIN reraise in fact) preflop with? AJs? i don't know...

the min-reraise screams high pocket pair to me. that's why i don't have a problem with wuwei's checking on the flop since it opens up the possibility of actually sucking value out of those hands.

on the other hand i find it odd that he would shove the river with a set or two pair after the third heart falls. the bet suggests a more vunerable hand. i will hazard a guess of KK or JJ and he pushes to try to use the third heart as a scare card to fold aces. i don't see him pushing for value with a made flush or pushing 2 pair or a set into the flush card like that. looks like a crying call to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. I concur.

[Deuce2High]

Yeah I think you see KK alot here as well. And the 3rd heart on the board really means nothing at all to me. He didn't play it like a draw one bit, even if he may be picking the river to represent it.

I think he has qq and madea set on the river.
I would fold on the river,because u still have chips that u can do damage with.
I might of played the hand the same way,because and i wouldnt put hip on flush draw.
I would put him on aa,kk,qq,so ur either way behind or way ahead.let him bluff your chips of to you.
ig he has aa u still loose all your chips ,but he folds to your raise if he has under pair

[Karak567]

Wuwei, totally OT but do you play the 55s a lot? I have been seeing a name similar to yours on the tables recently.

[Paragon]

Nice post, I think this hand encompasses a lot of the difficulties with AK nicely.

One line I like is to keep it simple and bet the flop strongly. The small re-raise out of position preflop could be a wide variety of hands, and a healthy bet on the flop will regularly take down what is a nice pot already, or get some valuable information. I would tend to check behind the turn with that play, for fear of folding the best hand to a checkraise. Then the river you would likely have another big decision, but it might have been easier...

Personally, I don't think the guy is "making a play" on you by re-raising suited cards like JTs pre flop. If he did, he likely would've led flop with a flush draw trying to get you to fold a medium pair... Also, I find that in sng's people are FAR more likely to check turn hoping for cheap river card, rather than make a large semi bluff out of position.

At the same time, I doubt he is bluffing. It almost feels like he DID hit his 2 outer for a set on the turn or river, perhaps flopping it. AQ is possible too.

I wonder what happens if you take back the betting lead pre flop with another raise...

[johnnybeef]

Insta calls. Your checking the flop means that your opponent probably doesnt think that you have an ace.

[wuwei]

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Wuwei, totally OT but do you play the 55s a lot? I have been seeing a name similar to yours on the tables recently.

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Yah, I'm back at the $55s pretty much full time and back playing my party account. Only reason I'm in a $109 here is because of the major heater I'm running at the moment /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Karak567]

Alright I'll steer clear of you then :-P.

[Irieguy]

This happens sometimes, ya know? You have position, and a good hand but you want to control the size of the pot and play for value.

The flop is fine, the turn looks good... and then he pushes. Crap.

But the fact that the river is a heart really helps you. He either hates the heart or hopes you hate it and is trying to use brute force to win a hand that he played like a complete donk.

Call him.

Irieguy

[mosdef]

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I think he has qq and madea set on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

he COULD have QQ, but really why would he push with a hand that strong with almost no hope of being called by anything but the flush? it just doesn't make sense.

of course he could just be doing something that makes no sense, as players are know to do from time to time.

[mike28]

Can someone please explain to me why checking behind on the flop is good?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
This happens sometimes, ya know? You have position, and a good hand but you want to control the size of the pot and play for value.

The flop is fine, the turn looks good... and then he pushes. Crap.

But the fact that the river is a heart really helps you. He either hates the heart or hopes you hate it and is trying to use brute force to win a hand that he played like a complete donk.

Call him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, with the proviso that you lose to exactly AQ or QQ (okay, occasionally aces, I guess) a fair bit but still less than you double up off two cards.

[wuwei]

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Can someone please explain to me why checking behind on the flop is good?

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Without a read, what hands would you expect to see from someone who min reraises preflop out of position? I expect to see big pairs like AA, KK, and QQ pretty often. Obviously you'll also run into some other stuff like AK, or a wider range if he's a total donkey.

Against that range, the best way I see to extract value is to check behind on the flop and see what happens on the turn. If he bets, I can call or raise. If he checks, I can bet. Having position helps, and the fact that when I'm ahead I'm usually way ahead is also nice. I don't mind offering a free card to 2 or 3 outers.

[mosdef]

to add to this, the primary reason for betting that flop is to protect against the flush draw. but you don't have to do that here because of the reraise preflop, which is totally inconsistent with any possible two heart that the might have.

my mantra on AK is as follows: AK can only make you money by extracting value from weaker aces/kings or by inducing a bluff from a smaller pair when you hit. betting this flop reduces the effectiveness of both of those lines since you are advertising a strong A, which will slow down a weaker ace and will possibly get a QQ or KK to fold.

[Deuce2High]

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I don't mind offering a free card to 2 or 3 outers.

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I guess it's just a general difference of opinion that I have with a lot of people who post here. In early game SnGs like this I generally like to play it fast and hard, and I almost never give free cards. Yeah I will occasionally change up my playstyle, but for the most part I don't see a reason to ever slowplay almost any hand in a SnG this early. With hands like this, play it hard and fast on the flop. Sometimes retards are willing to play back at you with a worse hand whether you let them try to catch up or not.

[Deuce2High]

[ QUOTE ]
to add to this, the primary reason for betting that flop is to protect against the flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

There is almost zero reason to be concerned about the flush draw here.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
he COULD have QQ, but really why would he push with a hand that strong with almost no hope of being called by anything but the flush? it just doesn't make sense.

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Does this mean that there is almost no chance you'll call here with AK?

[mike28]

[ QUOTE ]
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Can someone please explain to me why checking behind on the flop is good?

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Without a read, what hands would you expect to see from someone who min reraises preflop out of position? I expect to see big pairs like AA, KK, and QQ pretty often. Obviously you'll also run into some other stuff like AK, or a wider range if he's a total donkey.

Against that range, the best way I see to extract value is to check behind on the flop and see what happens on the turn. If he bets, I can call or raise. If he checks, I can bet. Having position helps, and the fact that when I'm ahead I'm usually way ahead is also nice. I don't mind offering a free card to 2 or 3 outers.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I had in mind. Thanks.

[Scuba Chuck]

I was chatting with wuwei via IM when this hand occurred. I don't think you mentioned the 3 hearts tho.

The one thing about this hand I didn't like, is the way our hero played the turn. There hasn't been much discussion on the turn play. Irieguy has touched on it a little here. What are the benefits of keeping the pot small here, now on the turn?

Also, regarding the preflop read. I think it helps a lot to think about the preflop reraise, and the subsequent flop check to get a sense for what hand range you think can play it this way. Our villain made a raise that wanted to be called. What hand ranges (normally) would you put villain on for that kind of move?

With that in mind, I think a case could be made that our hero is only beating KK, AJ. Splitting with another AK, and losing to AA, QQ, AQ. Is my hand range too narrow? If not, maybe this is a good fold???

[Irieguy]

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With that in mind, I think a case could be made that our hero is only beating KK, AJ. Splitting with another AK, and losing to AA, QQ, AQ. Is my hand range too narrow? If not, maybe this is a good fold???

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Ok, the whole "preflop range" discussion going on in this thread is totally ridiculous. Just because somebody min-reraises you from the BB doesn't mean they have aces or kings.

In fact, almost anytime an opponent has a hand that strong and knows that they will be heads-up... they try to get as many chips as possible into the pot (as many as they think you will call.) So, simply in terms of pattern recognition I'd say this player has two goofy cards far more often than a premium hand. Weak aces are definitely in the running, too.

Sure, he has a set or AQ sometimes... but it's a pretty healthy majority of the time that he'll turn over an under pair or weak ace.

As far as Scuba's question about the turn, how could you not like his turn play? Obviously he can't fold, so you are suggesting a raise. Why raise him off nothing when he may be willing to bluff at the river, and why let him check-raise you with a real hand or draw when you may have been able to showdown for less on the river?

Irieguy

[Deuce2High]

[ QUOTE ]


As far as Scuba's question about the turn, how could you not like his turn play? Obviously he can't fold, so you are suggesting a raise. Why raise him off nothing when he may be willing to bluff at the river, and why let him check-raise you with a real hand or draw when you may have been able to showdown for less on the river?

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Because checking behind/calling on all streets to get a cheap showdown and/or induce a bluff is the wrong way to extract value in a SnG... especially with AK.

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Although I do completely agree everything else you said. I just think that after the flop the game is to try to get it all in as fast as you can without scaring him away too often when hes really weak.

I like raising on the turn because many times the opponent has already ruled out the possibility of you having an ace... the check-check on the flop makes it seem like both of you are wary of the Ace-high flop.

Then you get played back at by weak aces, KK, etc.

And if you don't raise the turn, then I feel that there is no way you can fold to any river card. There can be no second-guessing, because you asked for the push.

I play it both ways, and I think both lines are fine--- as long as you are committed to calling a river push if you chose to flat call the turn.

[patrick dicaprio]

easy call in most games. the fact is i think the better players are likely betting this flop with a draw, he underraised the preflop bet and then pushes when he makes a flush hoping you will call when he should bet less? i am calling here and expect to see a pair like TT of JJ or, ugh, AQ.

the potential problem though is that he could interpret your check and then flat call as having a draw (of course you wouldnt call for 150 with just a draw getting just over 2-1 with one card to come would you?). so if this is the case then you are dead.

i would call, grit my teeth and hope i am not shown AQ.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

on the contrary i think this is a good way to get a huge amount of chips in on the river as a bluff. too often you will see players make deeperation plays or wacky plays on teh river in situations like this just because a third heart comes. i am much more worried about AQ than i am about the flush. A PROVISO is that i play at the 30 level and lower so perhaps the 100 is different.

Pat

Repop flop to 450.

most likely hand villan has is KK, followed my QQ.
AA is in their somewhere too but much less likely.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
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to add to this, the primary reason for betting that flop is to protect against the flush draw

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There is almost zero reason to be concerned about the flush draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is exactly what i said in the sentence IMMEDIATELY following this extract. did you read the first line of my post, stop, and then respond?

[mosdef]

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he COULD have QQ, but really why would he push with a hand that strong with almost no hope of being called by anything but the flush? it just doesn't make sense.

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Does this mean that there is almost no chance you'll call here with AK?

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no, as stated in my post above i call expecting to see KK or JJ, but cringing because i may occasionally see something that beats me which is irritating.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

With that in mind, I think a case could be made that our hero is only beating KK, AJ. Splitting with another AK, and losing to AA, QQ, AQ. Is my hand range too narrow? If not, maybe this is a good fold???


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Ok, the whole "preflop range" discussion going on in this thread is totally ridiculous. Just because somebody min-reraises you from the BB doesn't mean they have aces or kings.

In fact, almost anytime an opponent has a hand that strong and knows that they will be heads-up... they try to get as many chips as possible into the pot (as many as they think you will call.) So, simply in terms of pattern recognition I'd say this player has two goofy cards far more often than a premium hand. Weak aces are definitely in the running, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be straight. I think the river is a call. But I threw out this preflop hand range stuff for arguments sake.

One of my critical errors in this crazy game is I probably over-analyze. The preflop reraise, and subsequent flop check is so strange to me. What makes this hand even more unusual is the river bet. Snapping bluffs, or poor bets is not my expertise.

Anyway, to my question. Is it fair to me to assume that a strange reraise bet like this, that's not steep enough to assume AA or KK means villain is a donkey? Do any of you guys make raises like this?

Furthermore, speaking of strange bets, here's another strange one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3660460&amp;page=2&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) that is so difficult to read. I think this hand is slightly marginal, and not as dominant as I think this could be.

Bleh, this game is fun.