What is your strategy for maniacs at low limit?

[Abagadro]

I know the standard drill of tightening up, hammering the maniac when you have the goods and trying to isolate, but I don't think that is as tried-and-true at low limit where it is often tough to get people out even 3 and 4 betting.

Just wondering what others do as I ran into a maniac last week playing 2-5 at a B&M (he was the poker equivalent of the Simpsons comic book guy, but that is another story). Gave me some trouble for a bit because even when I got over on him, someone laying in the weeds sometimes took it down.

[cferejohn]

I'm not sure there is a better answer than patience. When you have a maniac plus several calling stations, the pots are going to be huge, so you don't need to win many to show a profit. On the other hand, the ones you don't win are going to cost you more, so your variance is going to be quite large. Some people don't even like playing in this sort of game, since you have the somewhat ugly combination of increased variance and implied collusion giving their suited trash better odds. I'd say be more prone to play high suited connectors and medium pocket pairs when there are several players in a raised pot (QJs, KQs, 77-TT), and be much less prone to play anything that tends to win with top pair (KQo, AJo, ATo).

With pots as big as the game you are describing can produce, you might be able to get away with playing nothing but AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and AQs, and still show a profit. However a) I think you can do better and b) my god that sounds boring.

[Abagadro]

Thanks for the tips. Your last point was the most salient as I got really bored sitting there folding as I was also on a big run of rags (best hand was A10o in 2 hours). Patience is tough when you see them cashing in all the garbage and you let yours go again, and again, and again.

I suppose playing in that type of game is a real mental test of discipline.

[JoeU]

What I usually try to do with a maniac at the lower limits is:

A) Make sure the maniac is on your right, preferrably directly next to you on your right. This is perfect position in my opinion to a maniac. This also gives you the best chance to isolate him when he is raising. If people want to call2 or 3 bets cold after you, then you should consider that game your personal ATM /forums/images/icons/grin.gif . Keep in mind that when you do raise from this spot, it shouldn't be with any marginal hand, only the best. If you call his raises, you should usually call with strong speculative hands (KQs) that can win with some improvement, but could also turn into a monster.

B) Be SELECTIVE and AGGRESSIVE about the hands you play. Keep in mind that this is how we all should usually play, but in the case of the maniac, this is the best way to punish him because, lets face it, we all love being raised by a maniac when we hold the stone cold nuts!

I'm sure there is more to learn out there. I think this is a great topic because I think the "maniac" troubles all of us.



Joe

[SoCalPat]

Two things to consider:

1. You have to know when top pair, top kicker (or something very close to it) is beat. Heads-up against a maniac, you pound that puppy. Against a multi-player field, it's very well likely you are beaten. Even if you improve, your card very well could have put someone over the top (you make your set on the turn/river, only that card completes someone's straight is a frequent occurence).

2. Bet the river. Too often, I see people merely satisfied that they have a hand to showdown vs. a maniac, and check the river after the maniac has checked. They're fearful of the check-raise when in fact, even maniacs know when they're beaten. Don't be satisfied with merely dragging a pot that has grown into a good size, and don't leave bets hanging on the table. Simply put, hammer the SOB.

It's a classic case of standing up to the schoolyard bully. Once the other players/classmates know you don't take any gruff, they'll be less inclined to give you likewise when you show aggression. Because they'll know you've got the goods. Getting kicked repeatedly in the teeth will take its toll on anyone, even a maniac.

[NutNoPair]

Position is very important. If the rest of the players at the table are going to let you manipulate the situation, than you want to act after him... As close as possible. This allows you to three-bet with any hand that you want to get it heads up with said maniac. Including hands as weak as A9off. You are looking for hands with showdown value.

If the field isn't agreeing with your plan. Than you want the exact opposite, to act right before him. This give you manipulation over the filed and allows you to use the maniac. Wait for a monster and look to trap the field for bets.

[Capt Phoenix]

There are some very good thoughts here! Although I normally wouldn't hazard my inexperienced opinions on a board with so much wisdom...this is a situation I've faced virtually every night I've played and I do have a few tentative conclusions. I welcome criticisms of them.

First, let me refine your description: You didn't have just a maniac. What you had was a lucky maniac, at least two calling stations, and at least one player on tilt. I can state this with enough conviction to raise on it because of the following:
The maniac was lucky because unlucky maniacs don't last long enough to cause trouble. They simply make their donation to your mortgage fund and move on. That's why I know this guy was not only playing seven-two offsuit; he was winning with it more often than he should.
The frustration of someone raising every hand before the blind and then after the flop - often without glancing at his cards (or at least it seems that way) - will drive mediocre players into calling stations. It's gar-run-teed. You can take it to the bank and put it into a CD. There were at least two calling stations.
Finally, there is usually at least one mediocre-good player at the table that decided to turn the maniac into his ATM and got aggressive. This poor fellow has lost the last fifteen hands to cards you wouldn't play if you were drunk, stoned, and blind. He is now on tilt. He's raising pre-flop with 8-9 offsuit.
It also goes without saying that your luck had turned to poopy-caca. If it hadn't you wouldn't be posting this; you'd be posting pictures of yourself rolling around naked in hundred dollar bills (and we'd all be throwing up instead of typing).

There may be some variation, but this is the most common "maniac" table I've seen. I spent two hours at it last night.

Some points to remember:
1) Forget table image - no one knows your alive. The rest of the table is playing the maniac. That means you don't have to be fancy; just bet according to how big you want the pot. If you check-raise the maniac before the flop you would expect anyone with the brains God gave a houseplant to figure you for high cards. You would also be wrong. Forget slowplaying - it's unneccessary. I've watched them bet into my full house with a pair of sevens. I was re-raised four times into my nut flush by two-pair...in spite of the fact that the last person to see me bluff was mentioned in the Bible.

2) Position is still important, but not for the same reasons the books say. If you know how everyone will bet within a reasonable degree, it becomes much easier to plan your play. If you aren't willing to pay $7 to see the blind, don't put in $2. You know that the maniac is gonna raise, and you know the calling stations are gonna pay to see the flop. So you just adjust to that reality. The only "random factor" is the tilt-o-matic, so play position on him. The rest of them, you just use. FORGET USING POSITION TO DETERMINE WHICH HANDS YOU PLAY. If you are UTG it's gonna cost you seven to see the flop. If you are on the button, it's still gonna cost you seven. Further, knowing that the player after you is gonna call, is just as good as having him call already when you're figuring pot odds. That knowlege will let you play more hands in early position and decrease your boredom factor.

3) Which brings up the next thing; Have you noticed that $2 into a $10 pot is exactly the same pot odds as $7 into a $35 pot? I know it seems obvious, but it was a bear for me to wrap my tight...playing...around. I would think, "I'm willing to pay $2 to see the flop with this hand, but not $7." This was wrong because I was basing my betting on the amount rather than the return-ratio. Always bet the odds - not your chips. The maniac WILL cause sever chip depletion while his luck holds. He may even bust your bankroll. If you are playing heads-up and have a 60-40 edge, you are quite content; you'll win more than half the hands you play. But if you are playing against a maniac and four calling stations, you may have a 25%-15%-15%-15%-15%-15% edge. You have a bigger percentage edge over every one of their hands...but you are only gonna win one hand in four. In the long run this is good for you as you are getting a 6-1 return for 4-1 odds. In the short term, however, it means your bank-roll may swoop and soar like a seasick swallow. Be prepared. It may be a while before the maniac's luck breaks. Make sure you can take it both finacially and emotionally.

This brings upt the key point:

The maniac is not your enemy.
Your Caca-Cards are not your enemy.
The whimsy of Lady Luck is not your enemy.

FRUSTRATION IS YOUR ENEMY

Repeat that to yourself. Say it at parties. Make it your email signature. Have it tattoed on your pecker if you have to. You may only be able to see "FY" while your losing, but when you flop quads and he bets into you, you'll see the whole message.
Seriously, though. As you sit there for 4 bloody hours straight watching hands worse than the ones you folded win the pots, you are gonna get frustrated. When you've just had to lay down the only decent cards you've gotten in two hours because the flop missed them clean and you know somebody out there flopped a weenie pair that he's gonna win with and there aint a damn thing you can do about it, you are gonna feel frustrated. When the maniac caps the preflop betting against your pocket aces with his 7-2 suited and then flops the flush, you are gonna feel frustrated. When hands that the table linen would have brains enough to fold are bet every round and beat you on the river - seven times in a row; you are gonna feel frustrated.

Watch for the warning signs!
Chip impressions on your palms that may never heal.
A desire to "explain" to the maniac exactly how foolish his last play was.
Finding yourself counting your chips and thinking how many days winnings you've already lost.
Thinking "Jack-6 offsuit isn't THAT loose a play, is it?"
Wondering how you got this pounding headache and then realizing you are slamming your head into the rail.

When these warning sign appear, LEAVE THE TABLE IMMEDIATELY. Go to the bathroom and splash cold water on your face. Watch a slot player until it dawns on you just how much smarter you really are. Note that even the maniac was smart enough to not play the lottery.
Or, if worse comes to worse, go out to your car and read "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players" until you feel better. As we all know - it doesn't matter how many times you've read it before, every time you crack the cover you'll find something new and interesting. It's the best cure I know.

Finally, don't be afraid to leave the table. There are two facts the books don't tell you:
You play best when you are having fun.
And playing against a maniac on a winning streak aint fun.
If your bankroll can't take the swings, or your boredom or frustration threshold can't take it; don't hesitate to go to a better game. Eventually the maniac will loose his streak and bust out to the others at his table. You can always go back then and take his money back from them.

I welcom criticisms from the experienced maniac-busters out there.

[Bob T.]

There are some very good thoughts here! Although I normally wouldn't hazard my inexperienced opinions on a board with so much wisdom...

Nice post. I hope you hazard a few more opinions in the future.

Only one point that I really disagree with...

Have you noticed that $2 into a $10 pot is exactly the same pot odds as $7 into a $35 pot?

It is the same pot odds, but the implied odds, are much worse in two ways. First, your initial investment, is much higher, so your eventual return on you investment, is so implied odds hands, like middle suited connectors, are not as attractive as they would be at $2. Secondly, because of the large pot that is being formed preflop, you might have the odds to chase, and your overall variance and postflop expense is going to increase, just because you loosened your initial calling standards. So it is the same pot odds, but your implied odds, and reverse implied odds are both worse with the bigger preflop action.

[rigoletto]

I agree with Bob: Excellent post with more wisdom then a lot of other posts on this board (including my own). So please feel free to post more!

[rigoletto]

Concerning pot odds and implied odds: You are of course right Bob, but with the line up in question (with calling stations and tilters chasing the maniac), your implied odds are not that bad compared to the situaion where you end up HU with the maniac in most hands.

I'm reacting because I think the Captain is making a good point here: you shouldn't count the chips but the odds! And if we ad consideration of implied odds I think we have some food for thought here!

[Abagadro]

Very good stuff and you described my session perfectly. I ended up turning it around when the seat to the immediate left of the maniac opened up so I could control the betting a bit better.

[ResidentParanoid]

You also have to consider the bankroll question, as well as the odds question: If the game goes from 2/4 to essentially 8/16 when the maniac plays, you may not have the bankroll for the game.

[Rockfish]

You sir, are a philosopher.

Not only have you crystallized my thinking on this very situation, you have done so elegantly and with prosaic panache.

My hat is off to you.

Rockfish

[Rockfish]

Pardon me. Do you call yourself Abagadro because you feel everyone at the table has your number?

Just wondering.

Rockfish

[lefty rosen]

Also maniacs live tend to lose steam much easier than online. Online if they get a rush of hot cards or whacko wins they get extremely unstable. (Live it happens too, but the rushes are less due to the speed) When a maniac see's his chip stack dwindling he tends to revert to a poor calling station until he dumps every last chip. By the way how much did he dump ?

[Abagadro]

Wrong guy. Thats Avogadro. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Play Tight]

Capt,

Excellent post. I think the maniac situation is one that we all face (expecially in Colorado,) and your insights were dead on. Please keep it up.

I also loved the humor in the post. Although I do take exception to your implication I could only see FY..I sure I probably could see atleast a third letter if a cute girl walks into the room.

[Joe Tall]

Hmmmm poetry. Nice post!! Welcome!