The Second lowest game in any room

[deucesevenoff]

Most of what I have read suggests that trying to put moves on people at a low limit game is useless because a bluff/fancy play will not succeed often enough to make it profitable. I have always assumed this is correct, but the events of the past couple of months (once per week at the Foxwoods 4/8 for approximately 20 weeks) are beginning to make me think otherwise.

Allow me to explain...whenever we go, I try and play tight, solid poker while my friend plays much more aggressively and bluffing frequently. Over the course of my sample period, he is a significant winner in the game (i.e. about 2BB/hr) while I always seem to leave broke. At first I just thought it was variance on my part and that he was getting lucky. But after such a long time I think that my friend might be on to something (never mind the fact that there are significant leaks in my own game).

The theory that I've come up with is that bluffing CAN be profitable starting at the second lowest limit in any room. This stems from the fact that the players at these tables, while not especially good, still know what good starting cards are and can read a board. This means they could also be pushed off a hand if they are not especially strong. (the number of times I've seen my friend bluff into four flushes and other similarly scary boards on the river and take down enormous pots is too high to remember). I was wondering if anybody out there had experience with pure bluffing at the lower (but not the lowest) games in any room.

Thanks.

[MCS]

This all makes sense. I have sort of a standing policy never to play the second-lowest game anywhere though, so I can't tell you if it's true. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DeadMoneyOC]

Having played a lot of 3-6 through 6-12 this summer I can only remember trying to bluff with air maybe a total of 5 times. Your edge should be sooo great in this games that bluffing should almost never be a part of your play book. BTW in my room where I play 6-12 was the biggest game(and the softest) I saw spread all summer.

It could just be that you playing way too tight for the table. I mean if everyone is playing as super tight as you say you do, then your friend will be successful bluffing them, but I can't hardly believe this is the case in a low limit table.

I find the 2nd limit games in Vegas to be very beatable. I don't really bluff the end too often, but occasional semi-bluffs seem pretty effective. I like the second limit games mainly because the schooling effect is less pronounced, but the opponent skill level still isn't great.

[phish]

Here's the secret to poker: aggressive play gets the money. weak-tight players are the easiest suckers to play against.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

When it comes to bluffing, I suggest you refer to theory of poker for when / where to try it, and when/where to expect your chances of getting away with it to be profitable. As a general rule, in limit games it's usually inadvisable, but the smaller the limit, and more importantly, the looser the players, the less profitable it is. Only when you can get a reasonable estimate of its true profitability should you be regularly trying to bluff in any game, no matter what the stakes. You should fully know the parameters with which to decide such matters as well, I am not going to tell you what you need to know to make up your own mind.

al

[midas]

Deuce:

I have played many hours of 4-8 at FW and these are my thoughts:

1. How much is your buy-in? Are you leaving room for swings? I typically buy in for $200 and have $100 in reserve. I rarely bluff at this limit and have never left down more than $20 playing 5+ hours per session. The only time I bluff is to build a loose table image with some of the local rocks who might pay me off later.

2. If you are always going broke at this level you may have another leak in your game that you need to examine.

3. Are you raising enough? There are player's in this game who never raise even with AA's. You need to play strong hands aggressively to build pots.

4. Table selection is key at FW - change tables if 4 or more players are not seeing the flop on a regular basis.

5. Play slightly looser if you don't see much raising pre-flop from you're opponents.

Good Luck

[BoogerFace]

Midas has some good advice. I'm no stranger to 4/8 at the woods, and it's very beatable.

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 'bluffing'. If raising around half your hands preflop is bluffing, then I think 'bluffing' is a good idea. Leading out with garbage on the river is a bad idea, it's rare to see a hand at this limit without a showdown.

What time of the day are you playing? During the day, it's a rock garden - and the occasional bluff will buy you a pot or two. Evenings when its 4 to 6 to a flop, bluffing won't work.

Would your friend tell you if you had any blatant tells? Are you sure you don't have other leaks in your game?

[Percula]

I think is has much more to do with the players in the hand than the limit spread. It is not too hard to take a single player off a hand when a scare card hits the board, but it is not very likely if there are 5 people in the hand.

Some people can not be beaten off a pot with their bottom pair with a baseball bat, so forget about 1BB get them to fold. Others will fly off their TPTK when the 3rd flush card this the turn or river.

LAG play can be very profitable, however it takes a pretty good player to be a good LAG. You need to know where you are in the hand and what your other players have (within a small range) or its a good way to go broke.

A couple of things I do when I am playing LAG or LAG'ish.

1) I avoid pots where the players in the hand are not easily readable by me.

2) Identify and try to isolate the weak tight nits. They are much more likely to overplay their TPTK or draw than other players.

3) When in small numbers to the flop be aggressive and evaluate the situation based on the other players reactions to your aggression.

4) Your hand reading skills MUST be solid or you are sailing in bad waters.

I know this sounds pretty simple and basic, but I think you will find it is harder to do than it seems. But give it a try sometime and see how it goes.

[deucesevenoff]

Its not so much that the players are loose or tight, its just that my friend seems to have an easy time representing a hand that can beat what he suspects they have. This is what I mean when I say that they are not necessarily loose or tight per say (there always seems to be a mixture) but that they are easily manipulated after the flop and not expert players. Hence, bluffing can become profitable.

Something I forgot to mention earlier- whenever my friend is bluffing he is doing it with the benefit of position.

[deucesevenoff]

So are you always being aggressive with a made hand/semi-bluff or are you playing aggressively when you have no hand and no draw? Is all the "equity" you need against a weak tight player the ability to represent a hand rather than make one?

[deucesevenoff]

[ QUOTE ]
Deuce:

I have played many hours of 4-8 at FW and these are my thoughts:

1. How much is your buy-in? Are you leaving room for swings? I typically buy in for $200 and have $100 in reserve. I rarely bluff at this limit and have never left down more than $20 playing 5+ hours per session. The only time I bluff is to build a loose table image with some of the local rocks who might pay me off later.




I usually buy in for $200 and that is it. When I get down I tend to go on tilt so I figure that the best medicine is to cut my losses and re-evaluate rather than blowing an extra $100. When I tilt, rather than playing looser and more aggressive I tend to tighten up even more and fail to extract value from my good hands.

2. If you are always going broke at this level you may have another leak in your game that you need to examine.




Yes, I have many leaks and I think not bluffing enough is one of them. The other major one is not extracting enough value from my made hands ("I must be outkicked"; "the guy must have had a flush draw"; "must have flopped a set"...stuff like that). Making folds (correct or otherwise) has never been a problem for me.


3. Are you raising enough? There are player's in this game who never raise even with AA's. You need to play strong hands aggressively to build pots.




I tend to play my strong hands aggressively, the trouble is that those are sometimes few and far between- its the marginal situations which will really define any given player's winrate.

4. Table selection is key at FW - change tables if 4 or more players are not seeing the flop on a regular basis.




Never tried this...I'll look into it next time we go. Thanks for the suggestion.



5. Play slightly looser if you don't see much raising pre-flop from you're opponents.


I agree...I should probably try playing some more online where I can get more experience for less $$. I think that for any given limit, online is considerably tougher than live (i.e. 2/4 online is a much different game from 2/4 live)

Good Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

[deucesevenoff]

By "bluffing" I mean betting when the actual equity you have in the pot is close to zero...you derive nearly all your value from the ability to represent a hand rather than to actually have it. The old "what does he think I have" rather than "what do I have."

We are typically playing on the weekend- Saturday and Sunday afternoons. I'm as surprised as you are that this works at this time of the week. In my experience the flops are usually contested 3-4 handed while I am there.

I absolutely have other leaks in my game. Not paying attention when I am out of a hand is probably the crux of my problem. I think that if I were more involved than it would force me to pay attention and try things I normally would not (i.e. betting raising when the straight card hits even though I was going for a flush).

[deucesevenoff]

Thanks everybody for all the great advice. I will try and incorporate some of these suggestions the next time I am at the Woods (or any casino for that matter) and see how they work.

If I'm going to get better I MUST learn to shift gears- and high gear selectively LAGGish play is one of those gears.