"Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone & Jim Brier

[Paisano]

I know this is a 2 + 2 site and I've read and own several of the Sklansky/Malmuth books myself. But I just want to put in a plug for Bob Ciaffone's "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" book. From an instructional standpoint it's outstanding, covering every aspect of play with an analysis of dozens of actual hands in every section. It's geared towards intermediate/advanced players that recognize that there is always room for improvement. I just finished reading it and immediately started my second read. Anyone else out there read this book yet, and what do you think?

[Robk]

This book has been discussed a number of times on the site. You should try searching throgh the archives as there are at least 3 or 4 good and interesting threads about it.

[Paisano]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll check it out. I'm fairly new to the site.

[Robk]

No problem. The thread "Ciaffone misses the point" in the Mid-high stakes forum is probably the most recent (and best) of them.

[bernie]

i would do a search in the archives using ciaffone/brier. this site went through that book with a fine toothed comb. lots and lots of discussions about many many examples in the book. i think it would be a great counterpart to the book to seek those threads out. lots of great ideas in those threads. it went on for months. hand after hand.

btw...the consensus was it was a great book, but a little weak-tight in thinking.

b

[Paisano]

Thanks to Robk and Bernie for the heads up on the archived discussion on this topic. I completely missed it in the Middle Limit discussion group, assuming it would have been in the books/software section. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse.
My original comments were based on the fact I'm a fairly new low-limit player aspiring to one day move up to middle limits. For someone like me I think the book is perfect. But the discussions were interesting. IMO Malmuth's "6" rating of the book is undeserved, but I guess one must consider the source. I don't think he gives a very convincing argument for that low rating. The other interesting comment was from a poster that stated "Poker books are for losers." I guess he forgets the fact that the Two + Two web site would not exist if not for the publishing company.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Paisano:

When it comes to my ratings, I think you should consider the source. They are very accurate, and I know what I'm talking about. Many people rely on them, and I have been doing these ratings from before I ever published a book.

Best wishes,
Mason

[bruce]

I have been a student of the game for 15 years. I am in the middle of reading the book. After reading the introduction I picked up a ton already. It's an excellent book. I realized immeadiately that in shorthanded pots I was not being aggressive enough trying to pick them up.

Bruce

[bernie]

i had put in a plug that this book should get book of the year. as no other book that came out that year, that i know of, generated that much discussion about plays of hands. whether right or wrong.

anybook that makes players look that much into their game has got to have something good in it.

Phil h's book will get airtime here also, but for a very different reason.

like i mentioned, the threads were like an extra addition to the book. though i havent read the book yet, i found the threads very informative. actually, one didnt have to really read it as it was just about completely scrutinized on here. hand for hand.

you werent beating a dead horse. many new posters will have missed those threads. nothing wrong with reinvigorating some discussion on them. i mean, we're not exactly tired of answering the AA preflop question. or maybe some of us are /forums/images/icons/wink.gif haha

have a good one

glad to help point you in the right direction

b

[Paisano]

Hello Mason,

I know you know what you are talking about. My "consider the source" comment was referring to the fact you are reviewing a competitor's book, and thus not a totally independent reviewer. If I didn't respect your poker knowledge and writing ability I wouldn't own three of your books, all of which I would rate higher than "6" for what that's worth.

Best Wishes

[Mason Malmuth]

Yes, but your post implis that I would lower their rating rating because it is a competitor's book. While I thought that Middle Limit Holdiem has some problems, and my review makes it clear what these problems are, I have given much higher ratings to other books by Bob Ciaffone.

MM

[Dancer59]

Mr. Malmuth,

I started playing holdem almost four years ago. I thought it prudent to preface any live play with a thourough grounding in the basics of the game, so I spent $200 on what were supposed to be the "best books" available. I won't go through the list but HOLDEM FOR ADVANCED PLAYERS and THEORY of POKER were in the lot.

Now, I want to say that I have no axe to grind but I have read the forum on and off for over 3 years and have made some observations and reached several conclusions based upon my experience with the forum and having spent the last three years living in Las Vegas.

First of all, HFAP and TOP offer very little to anyone wishing to learn correct play.The former is very poorly organized,lacks any kind of reasonable continuity of thought and is replete with very questionable advice. The lack of thought flow leads one to think it was dictated into a recorder and printed unedited. TOP is obviosly the product of a fine mind but is all but useless in terms of a teaching instrument. Intellectual masturbation a poker player will not make. The chapter on "bluffing theory" was most interesting.

I can say without reserve that of the many, many holdem players I played with, became aquainted with and became friends with, including many that played at Mirage and Belagio, easly 80% of these players agree with these comments.

It is obviously your policy to denegrate any book not published by your company. The Jones book "Winning at Low Limit Holdem'" was given a rating of 3 by your rating system and it is considered to be an excellent starting referrence for novice players. Again, this is the consensus of the 35 or 40 players I came to know on a regular basis as well as many others I queried.

As to the Ciaffone-Brier book there can be little doubt in the mind of any thinking player that it is the most valuable teaching aid in the holdem literature to date and is already being refered to as a classic.

In closing, I must tell you that I know many who have played with you, Mr. Malmuth and most have little or no respect for you as a player. Several think you actually play rather poorly. Several have told me that at your skill level you must be a losing player. Evidently a mathmatician does not necessarily a poker player make.

You and Mr. Sklansky are to be admired for the very successful business you have built, and good for you. But I would suggest that you leave writing books about holdem to those who know the game better than you and to those who can write.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dancer:

I agree with everything you say.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Al Mirpuri]

Dear Mason Malmuth,

I am shocked by what Dancer59 has written and by the moderation of your response.

Yours,

Al Mirpuri

[Flashy]

FWI

I bought HPFAP when I started playing and didn't find it helpful. After playing a year and reading posts on this forum, I decided to read it again. I couldn't find my copy, so I bite the bullet and bought it again. That's $60 invested in a book - still a great bargin.

Night and day difference reading it the second time around after a year of experience. Now I read and reread it constantly.

It is like the Bible, sometimes difficult to follow, but worth the effort. Frankly, I am glad it is a tough read so fewer people devote the effort.

I am also certain that after all your years of playing, analyzing and writing about the game, you probably are a poor player. You should be easy pickings for someone with Dancer's abilities.

With the fat earnings from book sales, at least you can afford the lossess.

Best wishes

[cero_z]

Hi Dancer,
I put the % of players who agree with you at closer to 95%, and I am extremely grateful for the presence of each and every one of you. Thankfully, you and they will populate my games and Mason's in perpetuity. Your years of experience with poker have truly led you to profound knowledge. Thanks again, and God Bless.

[Robk]