Rate this potential turn calldown (TPMK to turn raise, 3/6)

[waffle]

Opponent is unknown.

3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>,

Current pot size: 8BB.

Effective calldown odds: 2BB : 9BB = 1 : 4.5

Rate on a scale from 1-5. (Use .5 increments if needed)

1: Clear fold - Calling this down is pretty bad poker.
2:
3: Pretty close either way
4:
5: Clear calldown - Folding is pretty bad poker.

I don't mind one liners or answers for different limits.

Thanks

3.5 I usually call this down against an unknown with this board. I think you will be in front more the 18% of the time. But thats me, I may play this wrong. You'll also have the added benefiet that he will no longer be an unknown.

Trent.

[RunDownHouse]

This is a powerful move from an opponent at a passive level. I fold, put it at maybe a 2.

[witeknite]

I think this is more of a 4. If you fold here, he might try it again when you have a weaker hand. I like finding out here what he does this with.

BTW, where are you playing right now? PM me.

WiteKnite

[witeknite]

While 3/6 does tend to be passive, it's 4 handed. Shouldn't that push things towards a call?

WiteKnite

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
While 3/6 does tend to be passive, it's 4 handed. Shouldn't that push things towards a call?

WiteKnite

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time, assuming your opponents have adjusted is giving them too much credit. I just see a player who called the flop/cr so he could raise the turn. I think folding is fine.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
While 3/6 does tend to be passive, it's 4 handed. Shouldn't that push things towards a call?

WiteKnite

[/ QUOTE ]
Until I see otherwise, I have to assume the opponent is at least not too far off from the majority of opponents at his level. Even 4-handed, give UTG a hand range that is consistent with raising UTG, calling a flop c/r and then popping the turn, and the see how many of the hands in that range are behind to Hero's holding. Maaaaaybe a semi-bluff, like Q9 or JTc that's looking for a free showdown? Other than Q9, any Q he raised pf is likely ahead. So other than Q's, what is he calling the flop and raising the turn with?

Sans reads, this is a fold, and no, getting a read isn't worth the 2BBs you have to pay.

[lautzutao]

Sorry if this question is off-base, I'm new to SH...

If this were 6-handed and this was open-raising from the CO would we be treating this situation differently?

I'm just curious as to why you're giving credit for a "big hand" and not some sloppy queen or A8, K8/images/graemlins/club.gif?

[witeknite]

You do realise that if he isn't adjusting to the number of players, than he isn't adjusting for position right? The fact that it is an UTG raise doesn't affect his range of hands if he is bad. That being said, you are still most likely correct about the turn fold.

WiteKnite

[waffle]

I put villian on:

pretty likely:
A better queen (3 outs)
A set (0 outs)

rarely, if ever:
56 - turned 2 pair (8 outs)
79 - turned weird straight (0 outs)
67 or 78 - oesd + pair semibluff
two clubs - semibluff
?? - random bluff

I think the "passive" read is the way to go. This is 3/6. The players love to call. Only the maniacs, the lags, the tags, and the tag-wannabes like to raise. Granted, that's a lot of categories, but these players usually stand out.

I thought the opponent almost always had a better queen or a set, but I said to myself: "I have top pair in a HU pot and the pot size is 8BB. Damnit, I'm not folding." And stubbornly called down even though all rational thought said to fold.

Villian showed 66 for a turned set.

I think this should have been a fold. I just can't see myself being ahead enough. If I had KQ or AQ, I would never fold though.

Kind of a fishy flop play by villian by putting in 1BB with pretty low equity, but, I put in 3BB on turn+river with no equity, so who's fishy now? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a powerful move from an opponent at a passive level. I fold, put it at maybe a 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with that. At 3/6 this is closer to a 2 than a 4. Too big a chance you are drawing dead or have very few outs for a move like that.