HU against baronzeus

[stinkypete]

Baronzeus and I are going at it. He has been opening with trash, I haven't been 3-betting with trash. I'm up at this point because I'm a much better player than baronzeus

Here's a hand.

I have J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button. (SB)

I open, baronzeus 3-bet, likely with trash, I call.


Flop Q/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

baronpoop bets, i call.



Turn 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

baronpoop bets, i raise



baron thinks my flop call is terrible. i think it's not.

EDIT: also, the SB is 2/3 of a small bet, if it matters.

[rory]

you called the flop because you were going to raise any turn card right?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
you called the flop because you were going to raise any turn card right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my exact argument. theres no way this can be profitable if you are calling to improve.

[Victor]

cap preflop.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
you called the flop because you were going to raise any turn card right?

[/ QUOTE ]

for the sake of this argument, let's say i'm folding unless i pick up a pair, straight draw, or flush draw.

[TStoneMBD]

are you saying that there is no such thing as metagame and stinky should only be calling flops when he calling flops when he catches a piece of them or plans a delayed bluff? im a very aggressive heads up player and i prefer raising over calling in most situations for bluff equity. im not saying i would raise/call or fold here, but i think they are all viable options. clearly a call with the intention of improving is -ev, but its really not.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
are you saying that there is no such thing as metagame and stinky should only be calling flops when he calling flops when he catches a piece of them or plans a delayed bluff? im a very aggressive heads up player and i prefer raising over calling in most situations for bluff equity. im not saying i would raise/call or fold here, but i think they are all viable options. clearly a call with the intention of improving is -ev, but its really not.

[/ QUOTE ]


what? the question is, in a vacuum, is whether or not the call is +EV. I said it wasnt, and he claimed it was.

[TStoneMBD]

it depends on how you define the word vacuum. its quite obvious that the call is -ev if you never play against each other again after this session unless of course stinky has enough bluff equity that the call is profitable, but that is truly unlikely. if you factor metagame into heads up play which is an extremely vital factor, i believe the call becomes +ev in many situations, especially in the type of situation youve defined. you cant let a hyperaggro player 3bet you constantly and play hit or miss against him. youll never beat him that way and that is why im often considered hyperaggro when im playing heads up because that is how many people react, by playing hit or miss and hoping for me to overplay my hands.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you called the flop because you were going to raise any turn card right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my exact argument. theres no way this can be profitable

[/ QUOTE ]your right, hes wrong, game over.

[TStoneMBD]

can you elaborate some on the game over before you announce game over? id like for you to come out and say that you think making -ev calls for metagame purposes in heads up confrontations is -ev overall because thats what it sounds like everyone is saying. if its so easily black and white game over then this is what it implies.

[flawless_victory]

IMO, most ppl peel way too much on the flop in these situations... if he had said that hes calling because he thinks Jhigh may be good and that his opponent is way out of line, fine. standard. tryiong to improve to third pair, or whatever, is a negative implied odds situations... i dont think he has enough here...
he hit his best card on the turn, and now he has Jhigh.

[Shillx]

Seems like a pretty clear call from here.

- 31 cards will give us something to either call or raise with on the turn

- There is some chance that our hand is good and will make it to showdown UI (and win)

- He might not bet on 4th street

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
can you elaborate some on the game over before you announce game over? id like for you to come out and say that you think making -ev calls for metagame purposes in heads up confrontations is -ev overall because thats what it sounds like everyone is saying. if its so easily black and white game over then this is what it implies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who isn't taking metagame into account for heads up play is wrong.

[DMBFan23]

read the hand kurosh played against neverwin (it's in kurosh's thread called "I quit poker" or something to that effect) where neverwin peeled on a two broadway, two flush board with like T4o. I don't know the context of that hand or this one in terms of the flow of the game, etc, but it seems that EV 'in a vacumn' doesn't apply headsup.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
read the hand kurosh played against neverwin (it's in kurosh's thread called "I quit poker" or something to that effect) where neverwin peeled on a two broadway, two flush board with like T4o. I don't know the context of that hand or this one in terms of the flow of the game, etc, but it seems that EV 'in a vacumn' doesn't apply headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]neverwin was on tilt or playing too low or something... thats just bad.

[flawless_victory]

also that hand went 6 bets PF.

[partygirluk]

That hand was 6 bet preflop.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
also that hand went 6 bets PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. neverwin was getting liek 13 to 1 or something. peeling getting 7:1 and 13:1 are two totally totally different things.

[Entity]

If his flop peel caused you to go on such crazy monkey tilt that you had to post this thread, I'd say it was +EV.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
If his flop peel caused you to go on such crazy monkey tilt that you had to post this thread, I'd say it was +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]


well it was HIS flop peel, it DID put me on tilt, but my tilt proceeded to net me $400.

[Victor]

often i call in hu situations with position bc i know that my opponent will check and fold on the turn very often.

mason wrote an article on this too.

edit: i should note that this likely not the same type of situiaton since i usually do this in a non-hu ring game. i just wanted to say that its often +ev to call the flop with nothing if you know that your opponent can raise pf with trash and will auto bet the flop and often run away on the turn.