$11: when should I have folded this hand

[liucipher]

I'm pretty sure I played this horrendously, so I'm looking for some help.

Preflop: don't like the idea of getting frisky w/ AJs in EP given that it's level 3

Flop: fairly good flop for my hand

Turn: this card filled in two different draws, which I'm not thrilled about. For t75 I called anyway.

River: I now have a horrendous hand. I found his t75 turn bet suspicious though (maybe a weaker jack or a 9), so I called like a fish.

Advice?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t785)
CO (t2285)
Button (t1730)
Hero (t728)
BB (t632)
UTG (t1840)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t50, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, BB folds, UTG calls t100.

Turn: (t350) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t75</font>, Hero calls t75.

River: (t500) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t175</font>, Hero calls t175.

Final Pot: t850

[SCfuji]

its okay to raise this pf from the sb. t200 should be enough since you are out of position.

[liucipher]

This is going to sound really dumb, but should I generally be raising more or less when I'm out of position. I could see "more" since I really want to thin the field, but "less" because I don't want to commit myself to a missed flop out of position.

I felt like any "reasonable" (i.e. not creating a t400+ pot on the flop) bet was going to get called by the UTG limper anyway and only eliminate the BB.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
should I generally be raising more or less when I'm out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any reason to change your raise amount based on position.

Raise to 200 to give bad pot odds to the limper. Reasonable formula is (3 plus number of limpers) xBB. You're trying to take the pot down right there, but leaving yourself room if he blasts over the top (in this particular hand, you should fold in that case.)

[ QUOTE ]

I felt like any "reasonable" (i.e. not creating a t400+ pot on the flop) bet was going to get called by the UTG limper anyway and only eliminate the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

And why is it bad to create a t400+ pot?

[pineapple888]

I don't like your line in general (see my other post), but given the action until that point, I'm out on the turn.

[liucipher]

The only thing I don't like about the t400+ pot is, if I miss, a continuation bet will take up most of my stack. If I check, since I'm out of position, I'm inviting the limper behind me to fire at a fairly large pot when I've shown weakness.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I don't like about the t400+ pot is, if I miss, a continuation bet will take up most of my stack. If I check, since I'm out of position, I'm inviting the limper behind me to fire at a fairly large pot when I've shown weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, if he just calls, the stacks are too short for a continuation bet. I'm just shoving most flops at that point.

But I don't think this situation invalidates my line at all, it's just something you deal with if it happens. I'd be happier seeing a flop than if he blasts over the top to start with.

[liucipher]

Isn't it a little early to be getting into this aggressive play?

That is, given similar stack sizes and a t200 preflop raise by Hero, should I be pretty much shoving any flop out of position regardless of whether I hit or not? Say I have TT and the board comes AXX or KXX?

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like your line in general (see my other post), but given the action until that point, I'm out on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

the river. you are out on the river.

[liucipher]

Would you have called less on the river? Say t75?


FWIW, Villain had Qc2c and managed to hit a higher pair on the river.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it a little early to be getting into this aggressive play?

That is, given similar stack sizes and a t200 preflop raise by Hero, should I be pretty much shoving any flop out of position regardless of whether I hit or not? Say I have TT and the board comes AXX or KXX?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking, but I was speaking about this particular hand. I don't think there's a general rule here.

Who knows, maybe I wouldn't shove here after all. It's hard to say without being at the table and having a feel for UTG as a player.

In any case, you only have 15BB at the start of this hand. Aggression certainly isn't out of line.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have called less on the river? Say t75?


FWIW, Villain had Qc2c and managed to hit a higher pair on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have many problems with this hand. AJ is a problem hand. You're completly out of position. Opponent is a donk with a stack much bigger than yours. There is no way this isn't going to be a bad situation.

A raise PF would be best. BB would probably fold and you're heads up with said donk. Donk would doubtless call.

My calculations say you're ahead on the flop. The turn card scared you unneccesarily. You check and lost momentum. You call off a significantly large portion of your chips. What are you thinking at this point? (Not a shot at you, but something you need to be asking yourself, I think.) Are you behind? How could you be, unless he has the flush? JJ is the only hand that beats you, which no doubt would have been raised PF. AJ splits. (Ok, he is a donk who could have flopped a set, but let's not look for monsters under the bed.) The check is very weak and the call is begging to get spanked.

The turn is where you win or lose. You either have to push all your chips in, or you check/fold. Simple as that.

I told you this was going to be a bad situation.

I'm willing to believe that there is one hand in every tourney you regret playing. They look good, but turn out badly. Most often these occur when you have a marginal hand out of position. AJ may be on the high side of marginal, but out of position with a donk--you must have had some read on him at this point, look what he played in this hand!--a donk with 2 1/2 times your chips. It's bad, man, and regrettable.

CJ