$55: Overpair in level 1

[Taraz]

Do you lead the flop here? Do you like a checkraise all-in? Just curious as to what people's "standard" play is.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t1030)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
UTG+2 (t985)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t75, CO calls t75, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t60.

Flop: (t322.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t125</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: t447.50

[pineapple888]

I fold here. I have to give some respect to an EP raise pre-flop.

Plus, if you put him on an A and another overcard, he has an inside straight draw as well. He's about 40% to outdraw you in that scenario. Reduces both your FE and your chances of winning, in one of the best scenarios for you. And you could very easily be way behind.

[Moonsugar]

I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise. Or raise instead of open limp.

Both of those lines I like better than the way you played it.

Limp fold I like to do early to set up the limp/rr later.

[B1GF1SHY]

His flop bet seems very weak for such a strong preflop raise. I think I fold this preflop but since you called, I raise here after putting him on AK or AQ.

[Pete H]

I like the preflop limp-call.

I don't want to open raise as I'd hate being reraised and closing the action by folding for 60 more isn't an option for me with these stacks.

[ QUOTE ]
His flop bet seems very weak

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and would push this.

NP: Gorefest - You Could Make Me Kill

[Bigwig]

I fold. At best, you're looking at two overcards (one likely an A), making you only a 3:2 favorite. Not the kind of odds I want on an all-in level 1. And that's assuming he does have two overs. You're calling for set value. You missed the flop. Fold and wait for a better spot.

[schwza]

no, at best he has Ax and he folds to your c/r.

i think calling, raising, or folding would be ok. if you call, it could to call the flop and check/fold the turn or call the flop and lead the turn.

i would probably call and plan on check/folding the turn.

Fold preflop after the raise.

Blinds are small, and with the exception of flopping a set... Im not sure exactly what you are trying to do here other than getting yourself into trouble.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
no, at best he has Ax and he folds to your c/r.

i think calling, raising, or folding would be ok. if you call, it could to call the flop and check/fold the turn or call the flop and lead the turn.

i would probably call and plan on check/folding the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that all 3 options seem ok, but I would lean toward folding. The bet seem weak, but it is into 4 players all of who called a raise preflop, so any bet is strength.

To those who advocate folding preflop - I like a coldcall. You are way getting the implied odds to stack someone when you hit your set.

[pineapple888]

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To those who advocate folding preflop - I like a coldcall. You are way getting the implied odds to stack someone when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You are betting 60 after the raise, you hit a set once every 8.5 times on the flop, and you might get paid off one out of two times you hit the set. It's still reasonable, but it's not completely obvious.

[-Skeme-]

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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

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This has to be incredibly wrong.

[The Yugoslavian]

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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

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This has to be incredibly wrong.

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Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

[downtown]

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To those who advocate folding preflop - I like a coldcall. You are way getting the implied odds to stack someone when you hit your set.

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Why? You are betting 60 after the raise, you hit a set once every 8.5 times on the flop, and you might get paid off one out of two times you hit the set. It's still reasonable, but it's not completely obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think with 1 raiser and 4 cold callers there is a good chance someone will pair their overcards or already has a pocket pair and will at least make up the difference to make it a good call. I don't think it's obvious either at first, but to an astute player it should be.

You'll get paid way more than 1 in two times where you hit a set in this spot. You'll stack someone or get a multiway pot one time in two and at least get some chips (equal to what you need to make the call right) when you hit your set more often that 1 in 2 times when you hit in this situation. Sorry for the ramble. The odds are there though. Folding is bad.

(odds of hitting a set or better here, 7.5:1, real pot odds here, 4.375:1, the call is easy)

[pineapple888]

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To those who advocate folding preflop - I like a coldcall. You are way getting the implied odds to stack someone when you hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You are betting 60 after the raise, you hit a set once every 8.5 times on the flop, and you might get paid off one out of two times you hit the set. It's still reasonable, but it's not completely obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think with 1 raiser and 4 cold callers there is a good chance someone will pair their overcards or already has a pocket pair and will at least make up the difference to make it a good call. I don't think it's obvious either at first, but to an astute player it should be.

You'll get paid way more than 1 in two times where you hit a set in this spot. You'll stack someone or get a multiway pot one time in two and at least get some chips (equal to what you need to make the call right) when you hit your set more often that 1 in 2 times when you hit in this situation. Sorry for the ramble. The odds are there though. Folding is bad.

(odds of hitting a set or better here, 7.5:1, real pot odds here, 4.375:1, the call is easy)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, good point about the current pot odds, I missed that for some reason.

But remember you could still *lose* if you hit the set, and maybe lose your whole stack. You have to factor that into the 1 out of 2 figure I used for implied odds. I didn't word that idea well in my initial response, obviously.

In any case, you've convinced me it's a call /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RobGW]

Well said. This call is incredibly easy. To all the PF folders, you do realize that NL is all about implied odds right? At any rate, even if you miss the set, you still have chips to play with. A good player can take a chance early and still win.

[Bigwig]

Yeah, calling this small preflop raise is a no-brainer.

[Deuce2High]

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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has to be incredibly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

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QFT

And for what it's worth. If I happened to misclick and/or make a terrible play and see the flop after that raise, I'd still check/fold.

[downtown]

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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has to be incredibly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

And for what it's worth. If I happened to misclick and/or make a terrible play and see the flop after that raise, I'd still check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate?

[Deuce2High]

Sure....

Folding Preflop: Even though I'm closing the action with this call, it is just too much to risk to hit a set right here, which is the ONLY way you will ever extract 1 more chip out of this pot. Combine that with the fact that after you limped UTG, there is a UTG+1 raise and then two MP calls, you are likely dominated anyways.

Autofolding the Flop: You are beat here 55-60% (estimate) of the time. (99-AA)

You're right that you need to hit a set to win the pot. You are also right that you are likely dominated. Still an easy call though.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding Preflop: Even though I'm closing the action with this call, it is just too much to risk to hit a set right here, which is the ONLY way you will ever extract 1 more chip out of this pot. Combine that with the fact that after you limped UTG, there is a UTG+1 raise and then two MP calls, you are likely dominated anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you want to be up against a high PP overpair when you hit your set? The implied odds are there for a call. The only argument against calling is a stack retention argument, and I am not persuaded by such an argument in this case.

(Edited so I sounded less patronizing.)

[Deuce2High]

I guess some people aren't. I am.

Have you looked at your pocket pairs through poker tracker over more than 2000 SnGs? I think if you make calls like this you are losing chips with them.

Being dominated is being dominated. No, you don't want to be dominated by potentially two or even three other players in this situation and have to pay a big price to see the flop where you can still lose. Or the board comes undercards and you have a pair of 88's and lose to AA/KK/QQ. (See: This post)

This is an easy fold in the 11s-55s. A decent call if you are a GREAT 109 player, and could be an OK call in 215s+.

[Taraz]

I really am shocked that some are advocating a fold preflop. You do realize that two people cold called, right? There is 260 in the pot and it's only 60 more for me to call. There is no way I was folding this. The immediate pot odds are almost 5-1. The plan was to flop a set or get out. I'm not going to worry about the times where I hit my set and lose to some other hand. If it's set over set or they incorrectly call my flop bet with a draw and hit, so be it.

With all that said, I think that I probably should've folded the flop. For some reason I didn't think that a high pair was likely and I pushed. The raiser called w/ AKs and missed. I thought he would fold unpaired high cards, but I hadn't really considered how many ways he actually had to beat me if he called. It worked out well, but I think I'll follow my "set it or forget it" plan next time.

[Deuce2High]

[quote

(Edited so I sounded less patronizing.)

[/ QUOTE ]

No need... I &lt;3 all.

[Deuce2High]

[ QUOTE ]
It worked out well, but I think I'll follow my "set it or forget it" plan next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea. This is another big reason why I advocate folding preflop. People need to know when to get away. Sometimes that initial call will lead to hell, and that is bad.

NH

[johnnybeef]

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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

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This has to be incredibly wrong.

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Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

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Yugo,

You are my boy, but folding 88 getting 5:1 for just over 5% of your stack in a multi way pot is a HUGE leak.

Love,
Beef

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has to be incredibly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo,

You are my boy, but folding 88 getting 5:1 for just over 5% of your stack in a multi way pot is a HUGE leak.

Love,
Beef

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but we've been over this.

Most players won't pull out enough $$ post flop with this hand here to make it worth it even though it's only 6% of your stack.

BTW Deuce: What does QFT mean?!?!

Yugoslav

[FlyWf]

You don't think you're winning ~200 chips after the flop with a set in a multi-way flop with a preflop raiser?

[Deuce2High]

[ QUOTE ]
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I am a fan of folding this preflop after the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has to be incredibly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops!

You have a leak...

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo,

You are my boy, but folding 88 getting 5:1 for just over 5% of your stack in a multi way pot is a HUGE leak.

Love,
Beef

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but we've been over this.

Most players won't pull out enough $$ post flop with this hand here to make it worth it even though it's only 6% of your stack.

BTW Deuce: What does QFT mean?!?!

Yugoslav

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Quoted For Truth Homie

[Taraz]

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Most players won't pull out enough $$ post flop with this hand here to make it worth it even though it's only 6% of your stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with this if their weren't two cold callers. But since there is so much action already, I feel confident that almost any bet will get action from someboday after flopping a set.

[Uppercut]

The reason I would call this pre-flop raise with my 88 is that my bet closes out the action and I don't have to worry about another raise after me. I know that an anecdote is not evidence, but this very situation happened to me tonight when I limped with 77 in level 1 and called a 60 chip raise because I closed out the betting. I flopped a set and raked in about 1700 more chips when some donk called my all-in on the turn with his pair of 9s.

[Moonsugar]

So, I guess my fold PF line went over well. LOL.

The reason I like to limp fold in this situation is twofold 1) to setup a later limp/rr and 2) because my inner demon really really likes to play flops exactly like you had very fast. The problem with that is (in general) 50% of the time I am way behind and 50% of the time I am a moderate favorite, not good odds. I think most players share this problem I have. Plus, I just don't think I am giving away that much value even if I played it better after the flop than I do.

The other line which I mentioned hasn't drawn much debate but is one to try: Raise PF. By raising PF you can risk more PF to give you a better chance to take down the pot postflop. It gives you a much better chance to win w/o hitting your set. You probably would have won this hand without being all in on a bad play.

[Taraz]

I really don't like raising utg preflop w/ any pocket pair below JJ in level 1. Even JJ I sometimes limp, but that's cause I'm a little biatch. Anyway, it's early in the tournament, and if you get more than 1 caller it makes playing post flop difficult since you are OOP with probable overcards. Do you just check/fold Kxx flops?

[Moonsugar]

No, if I raise PF with this hand then with 2 or less opps I am leading at almost every flop. With 3 I lead if no A or K. IMO, that is how you have to play it if you raise preflop.

In the hand you actually played you get to probably the same situation before the flop, 4 ways in a raised pot. The big difference is you have the initiative since you were the preflop raiser. The downside is you can get reraised off your hand preflop. But I don't think that risk outweighs the initiative, mixing up play, and the perils of playing 88 postflop w/o a set and w/o overcards in a huge pot after having limped/called.

Limping is my default but I raise a fair amount.

There are lots of situations in SnG where there is only one right way to play the hand, first in preflop level 1 with 88 is not one of them.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but we've been over this.

Most players won't pull out enough $$ post flop with this hand here to make it worth it even though it's only 6% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, this has to be wrong. Even a below average player is going to be able to pull more than t187.5 more when they hit, which is what's needed to make the p/f call even odds (assuming we first limped). So postflop we're looking at a pot of t325, an we're not going to be able to pull out t187.5 more on average when there has been a big pf raise and 2 other coldcallers?????

I think you're way off base here. I might agree if there were 2 to the flop or in another situation, but not here. No way. Unless you're going to provide some other rationale than we've been over this as to why we can't get t190 or more on average out of this flop postflop I can't accept "we've been over this."

[The Yugoslavian]

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Unless you're going to provide some other rationale than we've been over this as to why we can't get t190 or more on average out of this flop postflop I can't accept "we've been over this."

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have clarified: Johnnybeef and I have been over this.

Anyway, I stand by my comments in this thread despite what some v good posters have said about it being ridiculously idiotic.

Pocket pair play in Party STTs is *way* overrated. All of the people rationalizing it due to reference of what is accepted strategy for cash nl ring games is completely bonkers IMO and has some serious misunderstandings about STTs.

Yugoslav

[Deuce2High]

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Unless you're going to provide some other rationale than we've been over this as to why we can't get t190 or more on average out of this flop postflop I can't accept "we've been over this."

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have clarified: Johnnybeef and I have been over this.

Anyway, I stand by my comments in this thread despite what some v good posters have said about it being ridiculously idiotic.

Pocket pair play in Party STTs is *way* overrated. All of the people rationalizing it due to reference of what is accepted strategy for cash nl ring games is completely bonkers IMO and has some serious misunderstandings about STTs.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

QFFT

( Yugo just ask if you don't know what the extra F is for this time. &lt;3 )