Question for Canada guys with Poker ONLY income who pay child support

[johnnydingles]

I am having problems with access to my son with my ex so we are going back to court. Problem is i've been paying child support on an imputed income which is reasonable especially in a profession with no guarantees. So anyway, i've played in a few WPT tournies that I qualified for, for $10 - $100 cost, so she is telling the judge I'm this high roller and bought into these tournies for cash and that I make a million dollars a year, blah blah, basically trying to screw me. Since i'm fairly new at this and as of last year, didn't even delcare it as my accountant and revenue canada said I didn't need to. So my income tax return shows zero, and she is trying to tell the judge I make all this money which i don't. Has anyone gone through this and have any advice? My lawyer isn't sure how to handle it as he's never had someone who has all their income from gambling. She has printouts showing day 2 and 3 of certain tournies where it says I have like $150,000 chips so she tell the judge I made that much, and on day 2 I made another $55,000, and $300,000 on day 4, etc, and the judge has no clue about poker and doesn't understand chips mean nothing. What am i supposed to do??

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
I am having problems with access to my son with my ex so we are going back to court. Problem is i've been paying child support on an imputed income which is reasonable especially in a profession with no guarantees. So anyway, i've played in a few WPT tournies that I qualified for, for $10 - $100 cost, so she is telling the judge I'm this high roller and bought into these tournies for cash and that I make a million dollars a year, blah blah, basically trying to screw me. Since i'm fairly new at this and as of last year, didn't even delcare it as my accountant and revenue canada said I didn't need to. So my income tax return shows zero, and she is trying to tell the judge I make all this money which i don't. Has anyone gone through this and have any advice? My lawyer isn't sure how to handle it as he's never had someone who has all their income from gambling. She has printouts showing day 2 and 3 of certain tournies where it says I have like $150,000 chips so she tell the judge I made that much, and on day 2 I made another $55,000, and $300,000 on day 4, etc, and this forum has no clue about poker and doesn't understand chips mean nothing. What am i supposed to do??

[/ QUOTE ]

post in the zoo

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
My lawyer isn't sure how to handle it

[/ QUOTE ]

Get a better lawyer

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My lawyer isn't sure how to handle it

[/ QUOTE ]

Get a better lawyer

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, to be serious for once, it should be pretty easy to show how your ex is full of [censored] and in no way did those standings relate to an actual cash prize for you...

[CardSharpCook]

NVG is where Bad OOT topics go to die.

Clearly you simply need to explain basic poker to this judge. 99% of all "winnings" are given back to the casino, fish, other pros. Also, simply taking the judge a tourney chip that clearly states "no cash value" might be helpful.

[DavidC]

Just curious, does your ex wife realize that you don't make this much money?

Because if so, just knock her off.

If not, explain it to her.

--Dave.

[Peter666]

Fortunately, as your income is non traceable, and you don't have to pay taxes (wooohooo, the best Canadian tax scheme ever!) no matter what the judge, lawyers, or wife do, you have total control of the money situation.

You can decide exactly how much your child gets. What can they do? make you lose your job, garnish your wages? Play limit and there is nothing that can happen. If you play in tournaments your wife may have evidence of income, but so what? You get the cheque and can cash it in an offshore account.

Now the bummer here is access to your son. There is no evidence whatsoever to make the case to deny access. The judge has to rule in your favour. But as people are stupid (especially judges) we don't know what will happen. The reason for the existence of the opposing lawyer is to make you look like Satan. Sometimes they win.

Even if you win the case, access to your son may be difficult depending on the derangement of your wife. What can be said except that women are crazy?

Honestly, if worse comes to worse, she needs to be put in a state of grave fear to get things done.

In the old days, a good old wife beating would have prevented this mess to begin with. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately, as your income is non traceable, and you don't have to pay taxes (wooohooo, the best Canadian tax scheme ever!) no matter what the judge, lawyers, or wife do, you have total control of the money situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

As a Canadian, I'm a little curious about this myself.

I mean, maybe your poker winnings aren't considered "taxable income" by the CCRA, (our "IRS"), but legally, they may still be considered income, particularly if you play a lot of poker and don't have another source of wealth. I'm not a lawyer, though, so I don't know...


[ QUOTE ]
If you play in tournaments your wife may have evidence of income, but so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that cashing it offshore is the solution to this... as if you took your paycheque from a regular job and cashed it offshore, they'd still consider that income. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The key, though, is that there's no way of telling what other gambles have not gone in his favour: other poker/sports betting losses, etc.

So even with a list of tourney wins, who's to say how much this guy made in a year? It's impossible to tell. You can't even say that he made AT LEAST his tourney wins, as it's possible that his net gambling income for the rest of the year was negative.

[ QUOTE ]
Now the bummer here is access to your son. There is no evidence whatsoever to make the case to deny access.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm really weirded out by this... I mean, if you stop paying child support all together, is that really a legally Good reason to deny you access to your son? It just doesn't make sense. How the hell are these support payments and child access being discussed in the same courtroom? It totally floors me... like, I'd even advise you to have two lawyers, one specializing in custody and the other specializing in support: they're two completely different cases. Likewise, it would seem to me that any comments made about payments should be stricken from court records when in a trial regarding custody.

Any info that you can provide me about this would be appreciated.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you win the case, access to your son may be difficult depending on the derangement of your wife.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is really screwwy too. I mean, it's a huge hassle if she gets bitchy one weekend and just won't let you take them out or whatever. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, if worse comes to worse, she needs to be put in a state of grave fear to get things done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite my comments to the contrary, this is by far the most retarded thing said in this thread (though I completely agree on an emotional level... other than that the child would probably be distressed if something happened to the mother... yeah, that would suck). /images/graemlins/cool.gif

It would probably look really bad to the judge if she started making claims that he's harassing her, if he were recorded, whatever. It's enough that he may be denied access entirely as a result.

... But I'm sure you know that.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm really weirded out by this... I mean, if you stop paying child support all together, is that really a legally Good reason to deny you access to your son? It just doesn't make sense. How the hell are these support payments and child access being discussed in the same courtroom? It totally floors me... like, I'd even advise you to have two lawyers, one specializing in custody and the other specializing in support:

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not a lawyer...

But, I think breaking the terms of the custody arrangement by not paying the agreed upon child support is grounds for amending the custody agreement and denying or restricting access.

Likewise, if the child support payments are based on income level, then hiding income is the same as breaking the agreement. It sounds to me this is what the ex-wife thinks is happening. Documentation from the accountant consulted and the ruling from the Canadian Revenue Service (or whatever it's called) should go a long ways toward clearing things up with the judge.

Note: OP poster said he has paid child support right along. I'm not suggesting that denying access in his case is justified. But, I disagree with DavidC about custody and access being unrelated to paying agreed upon child support.

[Peter666]

The Canadian tax code states that the winnings of professional BlackJack players are tax free.

Technically our gambling winnings in Canada are tax free too...if they come from a registered Canadian casino. It is actually illegal to play poker online in Canada, but nothing can be done because the poker companies themselves are offshore! One cannot claim illegal income as income /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Our winnings in the US are tax exempt too, which is why we hear those commercials on retrieving your American taxes. There is even an advertisement at the airport in Las Vegas for Canadians to get their American taxes back through a company.

For goodness sake, don't let the politicians know!!!!!!!!

[DavidC]

Thanks for the info, bro!

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a lawyer...

But, I think breaking the terms of the custody arrangement by not paying the agreed upon child support is grounds for amending the custody agreement and denying or restricting access.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting... I'd never considered that they might be in the same contract.

Like, can you pay more to get more time with the child? How about just buying the child outright? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, but legally the two issues seem separate.

If they're part of the same contract, though, that would be creepy...

I'm really really glad I've never had to deal with this sort of thing.

--Dave.

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting... I'd never considered that they might be in the same contract.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm probably wrong about it being the same contract, or part of the same court order. But, faiure to follow the child support court order, just like failure to follow any court order, or being convicted of a crime, would be something the judge would consider when custody is revisited. And, where the court order was directly related to parenting, I would think it would have particular relevance.

One thing I think we can all agree upon: your attorney should know how to handle these things. If your attorney is confused or in over his head, I'd seriously consider a new attorney. Access to your son is too important to let a bumbling attorney mess up. (Obviously also too important to rely upon any advice you may get in a 2+2 forum.) Get an attorney who knows what he is doing.

[johnnydingles]

Just wanted to clear a few things up here. I missed a few things in my first post. First off, yes, BOTH access, AND support are part of the same court order we have and being discussed at the same time in court now.

We already have a court order because i took her to court last year for not letting me see my son and playing all these games. He is 4 and I have paid support from the start, and agreed on an imputed income in court last year of $28,000 or so as that sounded fair, and by no means do I want to just pay nothing. At the time, we had no court order and I was buying ALL his clothes, ALL the food, EVERYTHING in his room, ALL toys, etc, you get the point. She has been on welfare since he was born and I had been helping out probably $500 a month or so with everything combined. When we went to court, she thought if she told the judge I had never paid(I didn't get reciepts from here, but I kept them for everything I bought, I know I'm stupid), that she would get 3 years back pay and be rich in her mind. This is besides the fact that she wasn't declaring this to welfare as welfare would have taken anything I pay off her cheque. So her big mouth made me have to pay the governement each month, and she now LOSES all the money i was giving her, and the money I pay each month now, she gets ZERO of as it comes off her welfare. You can see she isn't so smart already.

So anyway, we got the court order for me to see him 3 times a week and things were ok for a few months, until she found out that the police will NOT enforce the order unless it clearly states on the court order that they can. So I haven't seen my son for 5 months and i've been taking her to court for contempt of the order. To defend herself and try to screw me she came up with all the millions of dollars I make and told the judge I mistreat my son and don't really want to see him. As the judge is really old fashioned, he thinks the father should provide EVERYTHING for the family and be a man, blah blah blah. I have no problem helping out, but I'm not paying for her to stay home on her ass and go drinking every night which she does. She is getting cut off welfare because my son started school this year and she has to get a job now finally and sees me as a way out of this.

So heres the problem, it isn't that my lawyer doesn't know what he is doing, or isn't good. Its that noone has ever been involved in a case where gambling is the sole income. I've called every lawyer in 3 cities and noone knows what to do. She has papers that look like proof of all this money i'm winning, but how do you PROVE i'm not, especially to someone who has no clue about poker?? And to try to explain to the judge that this is all wrong doesn't help much because its basically my word against hers, and she has the printouts from the internet that look pretty convincing to someone with no clue about poker. My mom sees a WPT tourney on tv and she is astonished why the guy with a million "chips" didn't leave when he was up and how he lost all his all money. Its hard explaining to someone that the chips are "play" money and don't really have a value.

Also, to be clear, NOT paying child support is NOT grounds to keep my son away, even if I wasn't paying.

The "cannot claim illegal income as income" line doesn't work so well as this is what Al Capone went to prison for. /images/graemlins/blush.gif Government doesn't care if income is illegal, they still want their cut.

With the law being so gray on gabmbling income being taxable in Canada, and not many cases before with gambling as sole income, its not an easy matter. I know this isn't the best place to seek advice, but I don't have many options left and thought someone might have dealt with this before. Its bad enough I can't see my son, but I might get stuck paying thousands a month in child support that I can't afford. And if I choose to NOT pay the support they say, in Canada, they garnish wages(no big deal), BUT they also take your drivers license away and many other things, so stiffing them is not an option. Funny thing is, shes been breaking the court order for months, and she gets no consequences, nice system we have.

[Victor]

heres how you prove you arent making all this money: bring your computer into the courtroom and log into a small tourney. this should show any reasonable person that after buying in to a 10$ tourney you dont magically gain 1000$.

[sternroolz]

For court purposes it sounds like you should be proving to the court what tournaments are all about...that however much you have in tournament chips is meaningless. To that end, I suggest you purchase the WPT DVD and bring it with you to court. Hand it to the Judge. Obtain a copy of the rules and setup for a WPT tournament. Finally, obtain the results of the WPT tourneys you supposedly monied in and show the judge how your name is no where to be found. I cannot fathom why your attorney has not done these things.

I would fire your attorney. I would hire another attorney at a reduced rate only for the purposes of appearing in court and exercising your rights, filing paper work, etc. I would present your own case. Show the judge exactly how much you have via your money transfer records, bank accounts, rent or mortgage payments, any other fixed expenses etc. Come clean about what you make, about the volitile nature of your income, etc. Tell the truth. Even offer that if you do score big(say $100K+) in one of these tournaments, you will set aside 10% as a college/trust fund for your son. Demonstrate exactly what you are capable of doing and why.

Normally I would never give the above advice, but you are in a bad situation with a bad attorney. Plus it involves your son. The upside of being truthful in statements and truthful in disclosure is tremendous here.

BTW, hope this is a lesson for everyone to listed and be a disciple of Tom Leykis.

[Peter666]

You need a third party noted poker authourity to come in and explain the rules of the game to the judge and answer all those types of questions. If it works great. Hopefully this will allow some sort of reasonable agreement to be worked out.

If not, stop paying your wife as you have 0 reportable income and try to get things for your kid on your own, not through her.

You are obviously not dealing with very intelligent or reasonable people here, and you will be screwed by the system...you already are.

See, my advice about putting your ex wife into a grave state of fear was not exactly a joke. Take as much money as you can, take your son and move somewhere else. You will be between a rock and a hard place. I have heard of men in this situation who have not seen their children for many years and even decades. Life is too short.

[WDC]

I am not in Canada but I do practice family law so I am going to give this a shot. I am not your attorney and you are not my client. This is just friendly advice. I am not licensed to paractice in Canada.

A couple of things I would want if I were representing you. Your complete records for the year. Second I would like your affidavit explaining your records and how you make money. Third I would want an affidavit from a tournament poker expert explaining who tournaments are paid etc. I would be thinking a tournament director from a local cardroom or something like that. I would also get affidavits from WPT events stating exactly how much you were paid.


If you have had a really good year you might be screwed a little but your attorney should be able to make an argument on imputing income basded on average s or the like. I would treat you almost like a commissioned based employee. Good Luck.

DISCLAIMER. I AM NOT YOUR ATTORNEY AND YOU ARE NOT MY CLIENT. I AM NOT LICENSED IN CANADA ANDS I HAVE NOT REVIEWED THE APPLICIBLE LAWS. THIS ADVICE IS GENERAL AND IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO PRACTICE LAW IN CANADA.

[jennifer29]

Hey Johnny, our situations are VERY similar. PM me if you like but here is what i KNOW for sure. Get a good lawyer, Harper Jaskot in Hamilton are the best i've ever had. The retainer will be 5k and they are very expensive. What you and i do for a living is a big prob in custody access cases. I had one judge mention what i did for a living 3 times in a judgement ( didn't mention her coke addiction once ). Second pay whatever CS is ordered, on time all the time, custody-access and CS are 2 seperate issues. If she denies access still pay ( by check ). Third , NEVER miss an access day. Fourth, keep good records of CS and access and everything else, you may need it. Fifth, try not to talk to her much and if you do tell her how bad you are running. Good luck.

[johnnydingles]

Hey WDC, thanks for the help. The problems with affidavits and stuff like that are each time we've been in court, the judge has not ONCE even looked at the folder or all the proof and documents we've submitted. He basically comes in, asks the lawyers whats up, and tries to move on as fast as possible. His only concern is I support "my family", and doesn't care, or punish my ex for being in contempt and not letting me see my son. Its been 5 months and many court dates and not once has he attempted to try to make her let me see my son, or care about her contempt. The only good thing that has happened is we've gotten the Office of the Childrens Lawyer involved so there is someone to speak for my son now. I was told the judge will pretty much come in and listen to whatever the Childrens lawyer suggests and make his decision based on that. He won't even look at our evidence as there are so many cases for the day he wants people out. I've got phone records, police records and everything else that prove over and over and over that she is a liar, an alcoholic, child abuser, etc, etc, etc. And the judge hasn't even glanced at them or asked about them. First time we went to court, I submitted tons of proof of child support i've paid, and tons of other evidence, and the only thing he heard was her say I don't pay, and I got 50 lectures throughout the day how I need to pay. I tell him look in the folder for proof and he just says I have to pay. I've heard I have a really tough, and old fashioned judge who see countless fathers in there each day not paying and not wanting to see their children. I'd figure he would see someone who does pay and wants to see their son, and he would be sympathetic, but I think he is so jaded from all the other cases he automatically takes the womans side. I'm in a tough spot here.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a lawyer...

But, I think breaking the terms of the custody arrangement by not paying the agreed upon child support is grounds for amending the custody agreement and denying or restricting access.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting... I'd never considered that they might be in the same contract.

Like, can you pay more to get more time with the child? How about just buying the child outright? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Obviously I'm being sarcastic here, but legally the two issues seem separate.

If they're part of the same contract, though, that would be creepy...

I'm really really glad I've never had to deal with this sort of thing.

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why this is so weird to some people. Providing financial support for your child is part of your parenting obligation. If you're not fulfilling your parenting obligation, then the court is going to restrict your right to act as the child's parent.

If you took the kid to a strip club every week, the judge might decide you're a bad parent and take away your visitation privileges, and everyone would understand that. So why is it so hard to understand that refusing to pay child support makes you a bad parent too?

As for the people who are saying "don't worry about it, they can't garnish your wages," the thing is that failing to pay child support results in a judgment against you. A judgment goes on your credit report and messes things up for you in lots of ways. The most common way to enforce a judgment is by garnishing wages, but the fact is that you can enforce it in a lot of other ways, including by seizing assets. It is very unlikely that you want to just ignore the proceeding and let a judgment be entered against you.

[WDC]

In most states it is unrelated in fact in Minnesota at least a parent denying access based on non-payment of support could be in trouble.

[WDC]

One of the most frustrating things i deal with are judges who don't read and don't listen. I feel for you. Good luck.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
In most states it is unrelated in fact in Minnesota at least a parent denying access based on non-payment of support could be in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

A -parent- cannot unilaterally decide to deny access (because there is such a thing as following a court order) but the court most surely can cut off visitation based on non-payment of child support.