First Hand Post....AKo utg+1 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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MrPokerPants

10-11-2005, 04:30 PM

I have been a lurker here for quite some time, and thought it was about time that I posted a hand.

Just sat down, no reads....

I feel like my play to the turn was pretty straitforward....after that I slowed down, and was wondering what you guys think....should I raise here to get any possible gutshots out, or is there a reasonable enough chance that I am already beat and need to just call it down?

Thanks for any input.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

TheMainEvent

10-11-2005, 04:36 PM

I would definately raise the turn. Nothing about the flop action or the turn card indicates that you are behind, and there are weak draws to protect against. If you don't raise, CO and Button will probably be correct to call with pretty much whatever they called on the flop wtih.

SeaEagle

10-11-2005, 04:40 PM

BB probably has 2 pair or better in this situation, but I still favor a raise. With 5 people in the hand, you only have to win 20% of the time for your raise to be +EV. With such a coordinated board and the pot so big you want to make legitimate draws pay to see the river and you want to face weak draws (gutshot) with incorrect odds to call.

When the pot gets big, you want to maximize your chance of winning the pot. Raising does that here but calling doesn't.

Fat Nicky

10-11-2005, 04:41 PM

Flop is standard. This is a draw heavy board and the 5 way action going to the turn does not suprise me and in a pot this big, there could be so many combinations of hands (ie. flush draws, gut shot straight draws, pair and flush draw, pair and straight draw, etc).

The 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the turn is a perfect card. BBs donk bet is a bit confusing, I feel like he could have KQ or something like that. The pot is padded, so I'd go ahead and give the turn another pop. I hate giving the CO and the button odds to hit a gutshot. I also want then to fold a smaller pair or even a weaker K.

deception5

10-11-2005, 04:54 PM

I agree with the others - raise the turn. The stop and go here is usually trying to prevent you from getting a free card with a made hand. Occasionally you'll be 3-bet but usually called down.

elindauer

10-11-2005, 05:24 PM

I'm having a very hard time putting the donk-bettor on a hand we can beat. He can't possibly be bluffing the turn into all these players after all this action, and if he had a draw and was prone to bet for value, he'd probably have done it on the flop when he had the golden 3-bet the field opportunity.

This bet looks like somebody who has a pretty good hand, but who is concerned about the draws out against him. He wants to wait until the turn to see if the heart Q or J hits. When the blank 4d arrives, he thinks he's good and attacks. Is this KQ? Seems unlikely.

The best case for us is, I believe 9T where we actually have some outs. I think his most likely holding is KT. 99 and TT are possible but I think he'd just attack the flop with a holding that strong and all those players.

I don't think you are going to fold much that you want to fold with a raise. Any flush draw and any pair+straight draw is going to call. So, although your hand is vulnerable and you'd normally want to raise here, I think with this board and this action, calling is best. Tough call though.

good luck.
eric

HajiShirazu

10-11-2005, 05:46 PM

You would like to protect your hand here, but the odds you are giving are exactly the same as when you raised on the flop, so it's unlikely that anyone folds. Some of they may make a mistake by calling, but that assumes you have the best hand. I think you are beaten badly with 0-6 outs fairly often here but still probably win 20-25% of the time. So this is a very close decision that is based on what you know about the BB. Since you know nothing, I lean toward a calldown assuming the river action doesn't go too badly.

MrPokerPants

10-12-2005, 12:27 AM

During the hand I thought that on this well coordinated board, it was highly likely that I was behind two pair at the best, and a straight at worst. After the hand I thought that a turn raise would have been better, but didn't know if the results were making me think that. When the ace hit on the river, my hand improved, but I had a different donk bettor this time, and I must admit that it really confused me. I think that on the turn I had already decided to just call this one down, and probably missed a few bets because of it.

On the river, assuming I raise, I think that when I am ahead, BB folds, UTG calls and I still get same amount of bets. However, if I am beat, I will loose one - two more bets than just calling gives me.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (15.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB
Main Pot: 18.25 BB, between BB, UTG and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (18.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB has Qc Kc (one pair, kings).
UTG has Jc Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kd Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.25 BB.

Grease

10-12-2005, 12:46 AM

I'm definitely leaning towards a turn raise, because you really need to protect your hand here. I'm not thrilled by the villian's stop and go, but he may have something like KQo and want you to protect his hand for him. I only worry if he (or someone else) 3-bets you here. Reads would help for future reference, but it's cool.
Welcome to the forums.

shant

10-12-2005, 03:40 AM

You should've raised the turn, but why didn't you raise that river?

MrPokerPants

10-12-2005, 03:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You should've raised the turn, but why didn't you raise that river?

[/ QUOTE ]

With so many people in the hand, I thought someone could be slowplaying a set or a straight....with hindsight I don't think a raise on the river has +EV in this particular hand, but not knowing the cards of the other players, is a raise appropriate in this situation? What if I get 3-bet?

shant

10-12-2005, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should've raised the turn, but why didn't you raise that river?

[/ QUOTE ]

With so many people in the hand, I thought someone could be slowplaying a set or a straight....with hindsight I don't think a raise on the river has +EV in this particular hand, but not knowing the cards of the other players, is a raise appropriate in this situation? What if I get 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well by the river it seems you obviouly have the BB beat, and the CO seems to be drawing because he hasn't done anything but call, and usually people who slowplay sets or straights raise the turn. I think BB is going to call a raise here a lot, especially after his donkbet on the turn, so I think raising is better than going for overcalls.

Getting 3-bet here sucks, but I guess it depends on who 3-bets to figure out if you should fold.

MrPokerPants

10-12-2005, 04:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well by the river it seems you obviouly have the BB beat, and the CO seems to be drawing because he hasn't done anything but call, and usually people who slowplay sets or straights raise the turn . I think BB is going to call a raise here a lot, especially after his donkbet on the turn, so I think raising is better than going for overcalls.

Getting 3-bet here sucks, but I guess it depends on who 3-bets to figure out if you should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points shant....I did have the feeling that I wasn't being agressive enough during the hand, and certainly felt that way after, but wasn't sure if it was just hindsight messing with my head.

crunchy1

10-12-2005, 09:35 AM

FYI - It's a very common play at 2/4 to stop'n'go the turn with TPWK. In fact very rarely do I see this play made with a better hand than just top pair - the majority of 2/4 players try to check/raise the turn (some even wait until the river) with hand like flopped sets and straights.

10-12-2005, 10:49 AM

I agree, crunchy. It's only the players with an AF of .6 or below that you have to worry about. And it's pretty clear when those players donk the turn that they're saying "I have two pair or better." This one didn't really look like it, so I raise the turn and raise the river. Worrying about a set is MUTB at this point, and keep in mind if you're 3-bet on the river it's occasionally a worse two-pair and you should pay it off.