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View Full Version : buying one out with KK

Spook
10-11-2005, 03:43 PM
Live 4/8 hand. I have red KK, and I suspect I am up agaisnt AA. There are three to the turn, me first, then unknown, then AA lady. (Three bet preflop, called a 4 bet, raised Q high flop)
16 BB in the pot on Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I am first to act, and know the second player with bet if he has a flush, otherwise check or call, and that the lady with possible aces with bet if checked to.
Should I try for a checkraise to either protect against a single spade to buy the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif out?
stoli
10-11-2005, 04:23 PM
Nobody is going anywhere in this pot, a check-raise is not going to protect your hand, push anyone out, or buy any outs. The K of spades may kill your hand by making a flush or a straight so you may have as little as one out here. That being said this is a huge pot. From SSHE we know that, "often with large pairs you committ yourself to a showdown."

Call this down and expect to lose, but given the action a check-raise will probably not increase your chances of winning this pot.
TheMainEvent
10-11-2005, 04:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is going anywhere in this pot

[/ QUOTE ]
SeaEagle
10-11-2005, 04:28 PM
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif isn't folding in a 16BB pot even for 2 bets. And it's only worth 1/2 an out anyway.

If you think AA lady would only 3-bet Group I hands, then you're drawing mighty thin as you're losing to all big pairs except the other KK (who's freerolling you). About the only thing you're beating is AKo with a single spade - which will still outdraw you over 25% of the time.

I think c/ring here is a total spew.
Spook
10-11-2005, 04:38 PM
I am not trying to get the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif to fold, I am trying to get the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif or TT to fold.
So that if the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls, I have to only worry about the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif in her hand.
SeaEagle
10-11-2005, 04:44 PM
Ok. Let me put it another way.

You are almost assuredly behind already. You have, at best, 1.5 outs, since the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif is tainted.

You should not be c/ring here to buy half an out.
10-11-2005, 05:17 PM
call down.
HajiShirazu
10-11-2005, 05:23 PM
Why not check/fold, getting 16 to 1 with one out?
elindauer
10-11-2005, 05:26 PM
You are behind with no draw and are deciding between a bet and a check-raise?! Why don't you just check-FOLD?

confused.
eric
W. Deranged
10-11-2005, 05:30 PM
The value of buying like 60% of an out or whatever is like buying between 1 and 2 percent of the pot. The pot would need to be at least 50 bets before we should even start thinking about this.
10-11-2005, 05:33 PM
Basically when you think you are likely behind, you shouldn't be putting in more bets than we have to, especially when we're trying to buy one out. Buying an out is buying a % of the pot, so you're putting in one or two extra bets to maybe buy 2% of the pot.
10-11-2005, 05:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why not check/fold, getting 16 to 1 with one out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we don't know for sure villain has AA or the other has a flush. KK is a big hand and should be shown down here unless it's two bets back to hero on the turn.
Spook
10-11-2005, 06:23 PM
I 'could' still have the best hand. If I do have the best hand, there is a good bit of value of getting the jack or ten to fold.

If I raise the turn and a spade comes, leading the river gives me a good chance to win the pot if the middle player does fold.