KQ suited, Heads-up [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Dagger78

10-11-2005, 12:20 PM

Been awhile since I posted a hand. I think this one turned out well but I played poorly (at first I thought it was genius). What did I do wrong? Villian has played 2 of 15 hands, can't tell you anything about him really.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP1 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

felix83

10-11-2005, 12:47 PM

What was your thinking 3 betting the flop and then slowing down on the turn? Were you trying for free cards to help you? Seems unlikely he'll c/r you again, and if he was trying to buy it with A-x you might get him to fold with a turn bet. But this is the kind of hand that I never know how to play. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

crazygoose

10-11-2005, 12:50 PM

I kinda like it. I'm not sure if three betting for the free card is always worth it though. I usually just call that cr and fold the turn unimproved.

Dagger78

10-11-2005, 12:56 PM

Checking the turn is where I think I screwed up. If I'm going to 3-bet the flop I need to continue with a turn bet right? In retrospect, I think I should have called the flop and folded turn UI.

Is the river raise ok?

felix83

10-11-2005, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is the river raise ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

On this board, he's either betting out because he has you beat, or because he thinks you have garbage due to your turn check, and has a weak hand. But with the Q river, it's unlikely he would still be that confident with, say, A-9 to bet again. The only hands he could realistically be holding that he'll call your raise with are KJ or AJ (and with AJ he might have raised PF) or maybe JT (might not play UTG) or QT. Anything else that he's betting here with either has you beat, or won't call another bet so there's no point in raising.

I don't think there's enough value in raising. I call, but would have bet had he checked again.

Fat Nicky

10-11-2005, 01:19 PM

I dislike the flop 3-bet, I don't think our draw is strong enough here for attempting a free card play. and with no read, I don't think our fold equity is not enough to 3-bet the flop and betting the turn in hopes that the villain will fold.

As the hand was played, I would just call the river, but I could see why that may seem weak. I can't figure out an good argument that says not to raise. UTG could have easily bet thinking a pair of Js is good with the turn checking through, and there is a good chance he will pay of a raise.

TheMainEvent

10-11-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As the hand was played, I would just call the river, but I could see why that may seem weak. I can't figure out an good argument that says not to raise. UTG could have easily bet thinking a pair of Js is good with the turn checking through, and there is a good chance he will pay of a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the river is good. A lot of players will autobet the river with virtually anything after the turn check and will probably be suspicious enough to pay off the raise. I don't see hero losing this hand unless its QJ

The Goober

10-11-2005, 02:15 PM

I think 3-betting the flop is fine, but I wouldn't do it every time - its a good way to mix up your play, I think. Hypothetically you have 11.5 outs (4 outs for the gutshot, 6 overcards, 1.5 for the BDFD) - even discounting the overcards outs some, this is a pretty good spot to semi-bluff if you can get villain to fold something like 9T, or less likely, a J. A lot of players automatically put every PF raiser on AK and think that any pair is good until an A or K comes.

If I 3-bet the flop, I'd probably bet the turn. I think that even if you just called the flop, folding the turn UI is absurd. That second 4 is a very good card for you - the hand I'm most scared of from villain is J9, so the board pairing may have just cleaned up your overcard outs. Even getting 5.5:1 (the pot would be smaller if you hadn't 3-bet the flop) now way I'm folding with 10 probable outs.

Likewise, I like your river raise (with the way that hand went down). I think that after you checked through the turn, villain will be confused enough to call here with lots of worse 2-pair hands (again, J9 is my guess).

W. Deranged

10-11-2005, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the turn is where I think I screwed up. If I'm going to 3-bet the flop I need to continue with a turn bet right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No!

Once you get check-raised on the flop, you are almost certainly behind at that point. Usually, players who check-raise the flop in short-handed pots have hands with which they have no intent to fold, particularly on innocuous turn cards like this one. Your fold equity on the turn is thus very, very small, and you should instead be disciplined and take the free card that you intended to buy.

I actually sort of like how you played this hand. The flop three-bet is questionable, but is very good if you feel your opponent is passive enough to not cap and not donk-bet AND you have the discipline to take the free card. If you just call the flop check-raise and are bet into, what is your plan? You should probably peel, but it's nicer to check behind and take the free card.

One reason I like the free-card approach here is that your hand is not A high and hence is lacking showdown value. When you check behind on the turn, your opponent will often bet into you on the river; this is tough with a hand like AK because you are often forced to call in a very marginal situation to avoid being bluffed out. The fact that I feel no need to call the river if I miss encourages me to want to take a free card on the turn (as does the fact that we have nothing to protect with a bet).

The other questionable point is clearly the river raise. It's certainly very, very thin, and is going to be pretty dependent on a couple of things:

1. Will your opponent pay off with a weaker hand like a pair of Js?

2. Will your opponent bet this river with less than top pair?

3. Are you concerned about getting bluff-raised (you need to be folding to a three-bet here)?

And so on.

I like it... nice hand.

Fat Nicky

10-11-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One reason I like the free-card approach here is that your hand is not A high and hence is lacking showdown value. When you check behind on the turn, your opponent will often bet into you on the river; this is tough with a hand like AK because you are often forced to call in a very marginal situation to avoid being bluffed out. The fact that I feel no need to call the river if I miss encourages me to want to take a free card on the turn (as does the fact that we have nothing to protect with a bet).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is quite intriguing.

SeaEagle

10-11-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No!

Once you get check-raised on the flop, you are almost certainly behind at that point. Usually, players who check-raise the flop in short-handed pots have hands with which they have no intent to fold, particularly on innocuous turn cards like this one. Your fold equity on the turn is thus very, very small, and you should instead be disciplined and take the free card that you intended to buy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The flop 3-bet is fine. HU, you're going to get c/red a lot when villian has a solid chunk of the flop. In fact, you're probably not going to get popped on the flop if villian has a huge hand - he'll wait until the turn. A 3-bet here represents an overpair (which is probably beating villian) and will buy a free card a large percentage of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
The other questionable point is clearly the river raise. It's certainly very, very thin,

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Villian has Jx a whole lot of the time. He was in call down mode due to hero representing an overpair, but after the turn check, he's value betting his J on the river.

felix83

10-11-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He was in call down mode due to hero representing an overpair, but after the turn check, he's value betting his J on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I see, it can't be a value bet. There's only value if he's sure hero has AK, and thinks he'll call with it, because Jx can't beat anything else. But even in this case, if he does in fact have Jx he might fold to the raise. So I don't think that reasoning gives the river raise nearly enough value.

Fat Nicky

10-11-2005, 03:05 PM

TheMainEvent

10-11-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From what I see, it can't be a value bet. There's only value if he's sure hero has AK, and thinks he'll call with it, because Jx can't beat anything else. But even in this case, if he does in fact have Jx he might fold to the raise. So I don't think that reasoning gives the river raise nearly enough value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you underestimate how often players will reflexively value bet on the river after an opponent checks behind on the turn. Without a read I think there is a good chance villian is bet-calling with a huge range of hands that he beats.

felix83

10-11-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you underestimate how often players will reflexively value bet on the river after an opponent checks behind on the turn. Without a read I think there is a good chance villian is bet-calling with a huge range of hands that he beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think that happens often, but we also have to be realistic about what he would have played UTG that he then check-raised with. If he'd limped after 3 callers I'd put him on a much wider range of hands, but in this spot the range is smaller than it could be.

10-11-2005, 03:21 PM

I like the river raise because s/he'll have Jacks alone enough to pay you off IMO. Prob KJ or AJ. I wouldnt reraise.

I'm okay with checking the turn given the prev action because s/he convinces me that KQ is behind. So, if the check is a mistake, I make it too.

TheMainEvent

10-11-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do think that happens often, but we also have to be realistic about what he would have played UTG that he then check-raised with. If he'd limped after 3 callers I'd put him on a much wider range of hands, but in this spot the range is smaller than it could be.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands that beat hero would villian have played the way he did both preflop and on the flop? QJ...and what else?

felix83

10-11-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hands that beat hero would villian have played the way he did both preflop and on the flop? QJ...and what else?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a better way of looking at it that I hadn't really done. Maybe I just went too far putting him on QJ. I don't really know what else there would be.

Fat Nicky

10-11-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I just went too far putting him on QJ

[/ QUOTE ]

With an insignificant read, it's a mistake to put your opponent on one specific concrete hand.

felix83

10-11-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I just went too far putting him on QJ

[/ QUOTE ]

With an insignificant read, it's a mistake to put your opponent on one specific concrete hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted. I often do this turn check behind if I've hit big, hoping that he'll bet out with a weak hand on the river so I can raise. I guess I should be more comfortable exploiting this kind of edge as well.

10-11-2005, 04:07 PM

I'm fine with it. I question whether you really need to 3-bet the flop, but after doing so taking the free card on the turn is fine. (Deranged makes a nice case for this.) If you just called the flop raise, it would seem that in most cases you'd have the odds to take one off on the turn (four clean straight outs plus ~ 3 outs total for your Q and K, plus 1/4 of the time you'll pick up nine outs on the flush draw.) Seven outs is plenty to take one off with 6.75 BB in the pot after he bets the turn. I'm only folding the turn if a non-club ace or a jack comes up, as that takes down our outs considerably.

10-11-2005, 04:09 PM

SoSo

10-11-2005, 04:12 PM

why are u 3-betting that flop?

felix83

10-11-2005, 04:19 PM

If you 3 bet while behind if you know you'll call a turn bet, you're saving half a bet to get to the river. Plus if it's capped you can pretty safely fold there or on the turn knowing you're behind, rather than hitting the turn or river only to find out you were way behind the whole way. (e.g. to 99 or something)

TheMainEvent

10-11-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Plus if it's capped you can pretty safely fold there or on the turn knowing you're behind, rather than hitting the turn or river only to find out you were way behind the whole way. (e.g. to 99 or something)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with the gutshot

Dagger78

10-12-2005, 04:41 AM

Thanks for all the imput W. I'm glad you think I'm better than I do!

I have to honestly say I didn't think about alot of these factors while playing the hand, and didn't think too much about the hand til after, which is why I posted here.

This may sound stupid but the plays just felt right at the time and didn't require alot of thought. I began to 2nd guess myself after the hand.

I was going to fold to a river 3-bet(which probably meant QJ at the least), but just assumed he would bet a J on the river when I checked behind on the turn, so I also figured he wouldn't fold to a raise with a J either.

10-12-2005, 06:38 AM

I really don't like the idea of folding an 11 BB pot with top pair. If you plan on folding to a 3 bet you should DEFINATELY just call.

TemetNosce

10-12-2005, 08:18 AM

Looks good.

The flop 3-bet got you the free card on the turn and you took it. Very good.

I like the river raise. Since UTG wait to c/r you on the turn or didn't cap the flop, he doesn't have a set. He most likely just has a Jack and since you have one of the Queens, he probably doesn't have one. Did he have something like AJ or KJ or even A9s?