$22 - QQ Call down [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 12:16 PM

Villain is a multitabler I've played with before. Funny name too.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t845)
Button (t785)
Hero (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t30, 4 folds, MP3 raises to t90, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 1 fold, UTG calls t60.

Flop: (t282.50) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG folds.

Turn: (t482.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t150, Hero calls t150.

River: (t782.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t150, Hero calls t150.

Final Pot: t1082.50

pooh74

10-11-2005, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a multitabler I've played with before. Funny name too.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t845)
Button (t785)
Hero (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t30, 4 folds, MP3 raises to t90, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 1 fold, UTG calls t60.

Flop: (t282.50) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG folds.

Turn: (t482.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t150, Hero calls t150.

River: (t782.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t150, Hero calls t150.

Final Pot: t1082.50

[/ QUOTE ]

raise the flop...

Karak567

10-11-2005, 12:23 PM

Push that flop.

tigerite

10-11-2005, 12:24 PM

The check/call is okay because he didn't re-raise preflop. I would personally lead the turn however. Then check/call river.

tigerite

10-11-2005, 12:25 PM

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Push that flop.

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That's fine, but not if you want to induce a bluff.

Karak567

10-11-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push that flop.

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That's fine, but not if you want to induce a bluff.

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On a drawing board in a multi-way part I am not interested in inducing a bluff, I am interested in protecting my hand.

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The check/call is okay because he didn't re-raise preflop. I would personally lead the turn however. Then check/call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much would you bet the turn, and would you call a push?

Remember, it's highly likely he's no idiot.

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 12:43 PM

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On a drawing board in a multi-way part I am not interested in inducing a bluff, I am interested in protecting my hand.

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These guys both opened for a raise - what drawing hands do you put them on? They will rarely have hearts, and I believe the raise of 100 is already forcing a mistake on to flush draws.

pineapple888

10-11-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a multitabler I've played with before. Funny name too.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of the betting makes much sense to me, but let's assume he's TA. What are the re-raising hands on L1 for a TA multi-tabler? AA, KK, AK, maybe other pairs if he's feeling frisky. So who's trapping who?

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t30, 4 folds, MP3 raises to t90, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 1 fold, UTG calls t60.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just called behind, so you have not clarified anything. I pop it up to 250. If you are re-raised, put him on aa or kk, you fold, on to the next hand.
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (t282.50) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is he betting a third of the pot? Continuation bluff? Trying to keep you in? Or blocking bet for a draw, maybe AKs? Who knows?

Here's a idea: pop him back and find out.

For the rest of the action, I guess if you're determined to call him down, so be it. But it's far from clear you are ahead, so why are you trying to "induce a bluff"?

You didn't ask a question in your initial post, so I'm not even sure why you posted. But those are my thoughts.

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a multitabler I've played with before. Funny name too.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of the betting makes much sense to me, but let's assume he's TA. What are the re-raising hands on L1 for a TA multi-tabler? AA, KK, AK, maybe other pairs if he's feeling frisky. So who's trapping who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Original PFRer minraised. Don't you think his reranging hands are a little wider than that? I would say TT+, AQ+ atleast.

[ QUOTE ]

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Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t30, 4 folds, MP3 raises to t90, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 1 fold, UTG calls t60.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just called behind, so you have not clarified anything. I pop it up to 250. If you are re-raised, put him on aa or kk, you fold, on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like reraising for two positions. Pot size control is gone completely. And I'm out of position. Although is it worth it to knock out UTG?

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (t282.50) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is he betting a third of the pot? Continuation bluff? Trying to keep you in? Or blocking bet for a draw, maybe AKs? Who knows?

Here's a idea: pop him back and find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has AQ+ here more than all other hands. His bet was fairly small and could have been a probe/continuation bet. If I popped him here, it wouldn't be to find out what he has - it would be to fold it, yet loose as little as I can to hands to beat me. Any suggestions on bet amounts? I want to keep the pot small though - I'm afraid of commitment.

[ QUOTE ]

For the rest of the action, I guess if you're determined to call him down, so be it. But it's far from clear you are ahead, so why are you trying to "induce a bluff"?

You didn't ask a question in your initial post, so I'm not even sure why you posted. But those are my thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's clear that I'm always ahead here.

I think every street is debatable. I don't have any specific questions, I want to start discussion on every street. It seems to work, because you evaluated multiple streets without me asking for anything.

pineapple888

10-11-2005, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a multitabler I've played with before. Funny name too.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of the betting makes much sense to me, but let's assume he's TA. What are the re-raising hands on L1 for a TA multi-tabler? AA, KK, AK, maybe other pairs if he's feeling frisky. So who's trapping who?

[/ QUOTE ]

Original PFRer minraised. Don't you think his reranging hands are a little wider than that? I would say TT+, AQ+ atleast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if that's your read, I can't argue. But once there's a raise, many multi-tablers don't get involved at all in L1 without a super-premium hand.

[ QUOTE ]
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Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t30, 4 folds, MP3 raises to t90, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 1 fold, UTG calls t60.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just called behind, so you have not clarified anything. I pop it up to 250. If you are re-raised, put him on aa or kk, you fold, on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like reraising for two positions. Pot size control is gone completely. And I'm out of position. Although is it worth it to knock out UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. Who cares about pot size control when you have the third-best starting hand? I would want to find out where I am, then get all my chips in ASAP if I thought I was ahead.
[ QUOTE ]
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Flop: (t282.50) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is he betting a third of the pot? Continuation bluff? Trying to keep you in? Or blocking bet for a draw, maybe AKs? Who knows?

Here's a idea: pop him back and find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has AQ+ here more than all other hands. His bet was fairly small and could have been a probe/continuation bet. If I popped him here, it wouldn't be to find out what he has - it would be to fold it, yet loose as little as I can to hands to beat me. Any suggestions on bet amounts? I want to keep the pot small though - I'm afraid of commitment.

[/ QUOTE ]
Afraid of commitment? This is shallow-stack no-limit poker. It's all about finding an edge and going for the kill. Raise to 325.

But that's just me.

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 03:25 PM

I felt that he was aggressive enough to throw in a second bet with AK on the turn. I now see it's pretty clear though that I have to pop him somewhere, and be ready to fold to a push. I think the pot was too huge by the flop though and a pop of 300+ would have been correct. He had TT.

schwza

10-11-2005, 04:23 PM

(haven't read)

pre-flop: good.
flop: i like it. in the moment, i'm sure i would've c/r'ed, but this way lets you see if utg is on a c/r without committing a ton of chips. if utg c/r's, i think you can fold comfortably (and if MP plays, easy fold). the only draw that utg can be on is a big flush draw, and that's not too likely. same for MP, except that calling instead of raising gives him a chance to try to hit if he has AK.

turn: i would lead out. if i have AK, i check behind here very frequently, and so do most multitablers who you've played with. you might get AK/AQ to come over the top, although i don't know how likely that is. i'm willing to go broke against KK+ here because i'm not going to fold later, and the money will probably all wind up in the middle anyway.

river: ugh, this is one reason i don't like your turn action. you're in a tough spot now - do you check/call a psuh? it's tough to call off all your chips in level 1 against a hand that looks like AA, but it's also really bad to get moved off the hand by a "value bet" JJ or a bluff AK/AQ.

i guess i'd check/call any. i don't like it very much though.

river:

schwza

10-11-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I felt that he was aggressive enough to throw in a second bet with AK on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

well it's a good thing you didn't tell us that in the original post.

SippinSoma

10-11-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I felt that he was aggressive enough to throw in a second bet with AK on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

well it's a good thing you didn't tell us that in the original post.

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This was just a feel read given the action, pot size, and the fact that he's probably a decent and possibly aggressive multitabler. You could be right though.

niquewon

10-11-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(haven't read)

pre-flop: good.
flop: i like it. in the moment, i'm sure i would've c/r'ed, but this way lets you see if utg is on a c/r without committing a ton of chips. if utg c/r's, i think you can fold comfortably (and if MP plays, easy fold). the only draw that utg can be on is a big flush draw, and that's not too likely. same for MP, except that calling instead of raising gives him a chance to try to hit if he has AK.

turn: i would lead out. if i have AK, i check behind here very frequently, and so do most multitablers who you've played with. you might get AK/AQ to come over the top, although i don't know how likely that is. i'm willing to go broke against KK+ here because i'm not going to fold later, and the money will probably all wind up in the middle anyway.

river: ugh, this is one reason i don't like your turn action. you're in a tough spot now - do you check/call a psuh? it's tough to call off all your chips in level 1 against a hand that looks like AA, but it's also really bad to get moved off the hand by a "value bet" JJ or a bluff AK/AQ.

i guess i'd check/call any. i don't like it very much though.

river:

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I'd take this line as well.