View Full Version : 5/10 deep AQs hand against a lunatic
Villain is a total maniac, raising preflop every hand, yes every, from 50 - 200. He has stacked a bunch of AK postflop...he 4bet all in with 32o and broke AA (not kidding), and called a 1000 all in with 98o and doubled up AK. In short someone hacked an account or has a total lack of regard for money, he is NUTS. Every pot is expensive and no one really seems to be fighting back, I've dropped about 4k to him but have since gotten a lot of it back. We are developing a mutual respect for each other, me because he has a total lack of regard for money, him because I am the only one that has a stack and can call his $120 open every hand. He seems to bet small in relation to the pot on the flop and turn, bet more on the river, and has showed down everything from 5 high to the nuts and everything in between. Earlier in the night I moved in (2k) on the flop with pair+flush draw and he reluctantly folded after raising huge, I don't know if that will work this time. I have 5k and he covers.
He opens for 60 UTG (means nothing), folded to me and I call with AQs. I call here because he will call 100% of the time with any 2 he opened with and will raise some % of the time with hands that I am both ahead and behind. In short, the preflop edge I may have here seems irrelevant since he is committed to seeing a flop. Does this make sense?
Flop KT6 (giving me nutflushdraw+gutshot)
He bets 60, I make it 200, he makes it 600.
Just an interesting situation, becuase online I'm never used to not getting it all in on the flop with this hand, but with a 5k stack...eh. Does your answer change if he makes it $1000?
gomberg
10-11-2005, 11:51 AM
Since he seems to give you action and a 4-bet push probably will be called by anything that beats you and not much worse (would he call a flush draw here, if that's the case, maybe the 4-bet line is pretty good).
It seems like the value of this player being here is that you will be able to stack him with great edge eventually, If you get in on this flop, your edge (if any) will be crappy. I'd call the raise and hope he continues his trend of betting small pricing you in. Hopefully you hit the straight and stack him, or you hit the flush and stack him if he has a lower draw.
If he raises to $1000, It seems easier to push, and I'd vomit because of raising the flop. Becuase of this, I'd consider just calling the flop bet. What's the point of semibluffing here against a maniac unless you're willing to get it all-in as a likely dog or coinflip?
punter11235
10-11-2005, 11:51 AM
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In short, the preflop edge I may have here seems irrelevant since he is committed to seeing a flop. Does this make sense?
[/ QUOTE ]
If you mean that your preflop edge is irrelevant cause he will never fold its nosense, the contrary is true.
If he never folds you should go allin with this hand. If he never folds up to raise to A but then start folding you should certainly raise at least to A.
I think its simple but maybe Iam missing something.
I would go allin on this flop for quite straightforward reasons. Its EV+ whatever he can have here, and calling maybe EV- if he has sth an move in on the blank turn.
Best wishes
fsuplayer
10-11-2005, 11:51 AM
i hate reraising here. i call and stack him off.
Also, a more general question. If he is opening every hand for something between 50 - 200, we both have 5k and more often than not he has position on me, which hands are you choosing to call with vs reraise? With position and without position? Pots will almost always be heads up, flop/turn bets will be 1/2 pot or less from him and you have zero folding equity (i.e. no moves, you have to hit a hand and show it down to win - with the exception of making a huge bet in relation to the pot - i.e. all in). I think I got a little carried away in terms of cold calling preflop. I probably dropped at least 2k just seeing flops. Only to have him bet and fold. Just some general comments from people that have experienced this would be nice. It's difficult because his open is equally likely to be AA as it is 32o and he doesn't seem to raise more/less based on hand strength. So it felt like you just have to put 200 in preflop blind, and then just play poker afterwards. I don't know.
fsuplayer
10-11-2005, 11:57 AM
i would reraise 66+, AJs+, AQo+ and seeing he's so deep, 67s and the like sometimes.
What I meant with the preflop comment is that while I am likely ahead, he obviously only calls an all in with a hand that has me killed because we are so deep, but otherwise doesn't mind seeing a flop If I had 1000 I def push. So who cares about 60/40 preflop if the bulk of the money is going in postflop and he betting any flop, whether I hit or miss.
craze9
10-11-2005, 12:00 PM
In general I would not go all in on this flop, even with 100bbs.
In this scenario I probably wouldnt even raise flop. He's betting small so just call and make a hand before you give him a chance to put more money in.
When youre deep against this type of player you should by trying to get his whole stack. Semibluff raises don't win huge pots unless they are called and you hit your hand anyway.
ripdog
10-11-2005, 12:04 PM
The pot odds say fold, but implied odds are huge. I would call the extra $400 and hope to hit my hand on the turn. It is very likely that he will continue to push and you will be paid properly when you hit. With implied odds this good I don't think it matters what he bets, you should call. If you miss the turn he might be able to push you out of the hand....do you feel like gambling?
SmileyEH
10-11-2005, 12:56 PM
Im not much of a NL player but could you explain the original flop raise?
-SmileyEH
Many reasons:
we both have lots of money
he doesn't have to have anything to bet
I have a sick draw
I want to build a pot so that if I hit I can take a bigger chunk out of him then if I just called down.
I might get a free card (this wasn't the case)
That's the basic idea...
scdavis0
10-11-2005, 01:05 PM
If you stuck it all in and he had just a naked flush draw, would he call?
BobboFitos
10-11-2005, 01:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also, a more general question. If he is opening every hand for something between 50 - 200, we both have 5k and more often than not he has position on me, which hands are you choosing to call with vs reraise? With position and without position? Pots will almost always be heads up, flop/turn bets will be 1/2 pot or less from him and you have zero folding equity (i.e. no moves, you have to hit a hand and show it down to win - with the exception of making a huge bet in relation to the pot - i.e. all in). I think I got a little carried away in terms of cold calling preflop. I probably dropped at least 2k just seeing flops. Only to have him bet and fold. Just some general comments from people that have experienced this would be nice. It's difficult because his open is equally likely to be AA as it is 32o and he doesn't seem to raise more/less based on hand strength. So it felt like you just have to put 200 in preflop blind, and then just play poker afterwards. I don't know.
[/ QUOTE ] Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=33812 11&PHPSESSID=&fpart=)
FoxwoodsFiend
10-11-2005, 01:45 PM
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Just an interesting situation, becuase online I'm never used to not getting it all in on the flop with this hand, but with a 5k stack...eh. Does your answer change if he makes it $1000?
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This is too big of a push IMO. If he makes it $1000 I might push but he'd probably have to make it 1500 before I push.
Here I like to just call because he's probably going to bet small enough that you'll have odds to call the turn and you can fold unimproved on the river.
I don't think the two reasons for pushing such draws are that compelling in this case:
1) Fold equity is probably small and the amount you have to risk relative to the pot is too great
2) You probably don't have to worry as much about not getting action if you hit from this guy, so you can play it a bit slower and try stacking him if you hit.
The only real reason I can think of for pushing here is if you think he'll call with a KQ/KJ hand but your edge there is too small (54% and 51% respectively) to justify your negative expectations the times he has a big hand.
FoxwoodsFiend
10-11-2005, 01:47 PM
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If he never folds you should go allin with this hand. If he never folds up to raise to A but then start folding you should certainly raise at least to A.
I think its simple but maybe Iam missing something.
[/ QUOTE ]
What you're missing is that saying somebody never folds is meant in the context of when they're facing reasonable bets. "This guy never folds-every time I somebody raises him to 200 he calls. So he must be willing to call $5,000 also" is not exactly solid thinking.
adanthar
10-11-2005, 02:15 PM
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i hate reraising here. i call and stack him off.
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I agree. I run into these guys all the time in tournament situations and the point is to double up, not win small pots.
He underbets the flop/turn and bets big on the river? Great, two cheap cards.
Ulysses
10-11-2005, 02:30 PM
Against the guy you describe, I really hate your initial flop raise.
IHateCats
10-11-2005, 02:39 PM
How many spots to your left is he and how many people at the table?
Also, I hate that raise on the flop. There isn't enough $ in the middle to get into a scrap over now, you know he's prone to big reraises, you've got a 2 way draw to the nuts, you've got an opponent who might very well call all in with 2 pair or a lesser straight or flush if you hit, you know you have very little fold equity with this guy, why you are rasing here?
philnewall
10-11-2005, 03:29 PM
i would just call flop and turn hoping to hit the nuts and get it in against him...i mean you said he bets small on flop/turn so why not just use your brilliant implieds to crush him instead of raising him which opens the action for him to play back very lightly.
tpir90036
10-11-2005, 03:51 PM
Yes, you have a big draw... heck, you might even have the best hand! But I would rather let him make a 5K mistake then given him an opportunity to merely make a $60 mistake on the flop. i.e., I probably would not have raised in the first place.... and I would certainly just call his re-raise. If the stacks were shallower it would be different, but they aren't /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Hope it worked out,
tpir
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Against the guy you describe, I really hate your initial flop raise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I could see that, I was thinking maybe I could slow him down/buy a card. Bad thinking?
SmileyEH
10-11-2005, 04:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against the guy you describe, I really hate your initial flop raise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I could see that, I was thinking maybe I could slow him down/buy a card. Bad thinking?
[/ QUOTE ]
But if he doesnt bet big, a free card isnt really worth it right.
Also,
Given stack size/pot size, equity of hand, you wouldn't want to raise this flop to build a pot?
gomberg
10-11-2005, 04:20 PM
Against the player you describe, you can probably build the pot very quickly once you hit. You may not stack him, but grabbing ~2k off him is possible. If he does have one of those hands he'll back with a stack (lower flush, straight, set), then you will for sure be able to build a big pot w/ rediculous edge / equity.
flawless_victory
10-11-2005, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also,
Given stack size/pot size, equity of hand, you wouldn't want to raise this flop to build a pot?
[/ QUOTE ]i think this uguy is just too likely to give you more action than you can ask for to reopen the betting on the flop, so dont do it (what if hed made it 3200?).
if this wasnt a capped game, id say push away baby! you certainly have pos EV against his range and even he will fold some pair hands that beat Ahigh... but this is a capped game! do not move in... dont do it. no. that uis crazy.. you are gonna get 5K in against him drawind dead.
just call here...
when he makes it 600, thats pretty sweet, as now you are big time priced in, and there is a pot to shoot at which makes it likely this guy is gonna bluff big.
if you make the nuts, wait for the river to raise.
Big_Jim
10-11-2005, 05:08 PM
Out of curiosity.... do we pay villian off here if we hit our A?
What about a Q?
thabadguy
10-11-2005, 09:09 PM
Yes we put in our stack if we hit our Ace or Queen
Big_Jim
10-12-2005, 06:05 PM
Okay, cool.
I don't understand flop raise. Do you expect much fold equity?
I prefer calling flop and turn (sounds like you'll have odds on turn), and I push river if I get a spade, J, or A. I probably call with a Q and fold all else.
fsuplayer
10-15-2005, 04:49 PM
results, ari?
I call, I hit heart on turn, he bets 150, i make it 450 he calls, river is a brick, he bets 300, i make it 1000 he thinks for a while and folds.
mgsimpleton
10-15-2005, 06:25 PM
you raised 1/5 pot on turn? come on man i know it's tough to figure out the pot live but throw a stack of blacks in there!
It was online, I wanted more money, I don't know how much more he'd call. He was fruity. Live it would be easier to figure out an exact number (most likely much higher than 450) and bet accordingly...
Jason Strasser
10-15-2005, 11:01 PM
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I call, I hit heart on turn, he bets 150, i make it 450 he calls, river is a brick, he bets 300, i make it 1000 he thinks for a while and folds.
[/ QUOTE ]
ugly
against most i agree, but this guy liked to do the bet call a raise thing, so...
mgsimpleton
10-15-2005, 11:48 PM
as ive learned through my bluff attempts that have failed, the bet/call a raise applies to near pot sized raises as well as donk raises like you made.
creedofhubris
10-16-2005, 03:13 AM
The size of your turn raise could use some thought. How you gonna stack him? What you gonna do if the board pairs?
flawless_victory
10-16-2005, 03:19 AM
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What you gonna do if the board pairs?
[/ QUOTE ]ARE YOU KIDDDING?
creedofhubris
10-16-2005, 03:23 AM
Those are some deep stacks.
mgsimpleton
10-16-2005, 03:36 AM
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The size of your turn raise could use some thought. How you gonna stack him? What you gonna do if the board pairs?
[/ QUOTE ]
creed do you have me on ignore?
creedofhubris
10-16-2005, 03:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The size of your turn raise could use some thought. How you gonna stack him? What you gonna do if the board pairs?
[/ QUOTE ]
creed do you have me on ignore?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just reminding him WHY he should throw in a stack of blacks.
r3vbr
10-16-2005, 03:56 AM
monster draw, he put 1000 and has another 3500 or so.. it's a perfect situation to PUSH in my opinion.
Sure hes a maniac but I bet he'll fold sometimes, and also dont forget he may have a WORSE DRAW than you and call with the worse draw. Worst case scenario you lose some 600$ in terms of EV and best case scenario you win like 1500$ +EV.
sure, it was best to flat call his flop bet, but after you DID raise, and he DID reraise, its a push!
fsuplayer
10-16-2005, 11:35 AM
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monster draw, he put 1000 and has another 3500 or so.. it's a perfect situation to PUSH in my opinion.
Sure hes a maniac but I bet he'll fold sometimes, and also dont forget he may have a WORSE DRAW than you and call with the worse draw. Worst case scenario you lose some 600$ in terms of EV and best case scenario you win like 1500$ +EV.
sure, it was best to flat call his flop bet, but after you DID raise, and he DID reraise, its a push!
[/ QUOTE ]
no, it aint.
mgsimpleton
10-16-2005, 12:05 PM
yeah that advice is unequivocally bad.
Kirkrrr
10-16-2005, 12:12 PM
Here's another thought: if he always min-bets flop/turn but bets huge on the river, why not smooth-call the turn and wait for the river to make your move? That way your flush is very well concealed, and he may interpret the river raise as a desperation attempt depending on how loose he is. Personally I think that might have been a better line.
Kirk
r3vbr
10-16-2005, 12:26 PM
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yeah that advice is unequivocally bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
im assuming he made it 1000 right, not 600
dont see why not to push for the reasons above
please explain wich of my arguments was flawed.
mgsimpleton
10-16-2005, 12:29 PM
ridiculous overbet all-in. you only have only 12 outs. villain will pay you off if you hit. he will likely not fold if you push.
which of things make pushing an appealing option?
r3vbr
10-17-2005, 12:21 AM
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ridiculous overbet all-in. you only have only 12 outs. villain will pay you off if you hit. he will likely not fold if you push.
which of things make pushing an appealing option?
[/ QUOTE ]
dude, 12 outs with 2 cards to come is a lot, it's like you got 45% chance of winning no matter what he has.. plus you can spike an ace and maybe get 3 mroe outs.
Im guessing he folds at least 30% of the time. No matter how maniac they are, they always fold at least this to this kind of overbet.
mgsimpleton
10-17-2005, 09:03 AM
yeah so pushing lets you make a slightly +EV play while shoving $5000 in a pot while just calling allows you to control how much you spend while likely still shoving close to $5000 (or atleast $3000) in when you hit and a whole lot less when you miss... but i'm not really going to sit here and try to convince you anymore it seems sort of pointless
arod15
10-17-2005, 11:09 AM
I had a situation like this of course stacks were about 1k not 5K. But against a maniac i dont like the line or push here. You said it yourslef he is crazy. no reason to bluff on a four outer. i think this is a fold here most times. Especially online.
[ QUOTE ]
He seems to bet small in relation to the pot on the flop and turn, bet more on the river,
I have 5k and he covers.
He opens for 60 UTG (means nothing), folded to me and I call with AQs.
(giving me nutflushdraw+gutshot)
He bets 60, I make it 200, he makes it 600
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not a NL player, but Im baffled by your play here.
He's giving you the chance to peel for $60, and catch a nut hand that can break him. Why on earth would you raise him?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call, I hit heart on turn, he bets 150, i make it 450 he calls, river is a brick, he bets 300, i make it 1000 he thinks for a while and folds.
[/ QUOTE ]
ugly
[/ QUOTE ]
scdavis0
10-17-2005, 12:21 PM
Why does everyone insist that you can bust him with an obvious nut heart draw?
Getting all in with 23o with 5 cards to come is much different than dumping off a bunch of chips drawing dead.
The non-heart gutshot broadway is a lovely card, and I'm sure you could break him with that.
mgsimpleton
10-17-2005, 04:18 PM
read thread before posting. thanks. bye.
scdavis0
10-17-2005, 05:00 PM
What's with the rude tone?
I did. I've played with these types before.
They like to gamble it up with bad odds but still at least drawing somewhat live. I'm sure he wouldn't have minded getting all in here with just a pair/flush draw combo.
23o beats AA every once in a while and it's fun as hell for him to be on the right end of it. It's why he plays.
That being said, I know damn well he isn't about to give AZK the satisfaction of going bonkers and getting all in drawing dead when any flush has him absolutely destroyed.
mgsimpleton
10-17-2005, 05:04 PM
please read name in response field before posting. thanks. bye.
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