When do you stop pushing AK?

[JonLines]

MTT, £10k guaranteed, 400 runners, 155 left, top 50 places paid.

Hero (SB) 4500
BB 2980
Villain (LP) 2555


Blinds 100/200
Hero Dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Folded to Villain, who bets 600. Folded to Hero who pushes, everyone folds, Hero wins 950 pot.

Now I am assuming I played this right (please point out if I didn't).

My question is however, how big would our stacks have to be before I don’t push, but instead call to see a flop? I am assuming it’s good for me to push in this situation but there must be a point where my and I opponent have too many chips for me to push, but too little for a re-raise without committing my self. How many BB's do you think this would roughly be?


Cheers

Jon

[mrh86]

There's really no wrong way to play A-K there, at least in my opinion. You could flat call or reraise to 1,500-2,000. Pushing just screams A-K to me, but it's not a horrible option.

[betgo]

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There's really no wrong way to play A-K there, at least in my opinion. You could flat call or reraise to 1,500-2,000. Pushing just screams A-K to me, but it's not a horrible option.

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Villain has T2500 is late position and raises to 600. Raising to 1500-2000 is the same as pushing. A push will not scream AK. It could look like a resteal.

Villain is pot committed and will probably call a push or other reraise.

Flat calling is bad here. I you flat call, push any flop.

The way that you play in this situation should not be the same in all cases - and a lot is read dependent. A lot has to do with how the table has been playing since you got shorthanded - has there been a lot of undefended blind stealing, lots of open raising or has it been rather passive with lots of calls and folds? This has a big impact on how you play at this point - it's not JUST about the cards even though you have a great hand here.

In this case I'd probably not push, but rather come over the top with a raise of about 40% of my stack, or 2k. This basically states the same as a push, that you have a strong hand and you're willing to commit to the pot with it. The problem I see with a push is that you're only getting called by a hand that is willing to race - perhaps another big ace that you have dominated but also perhaps a small PP. You're limiting the hands that will call your bet to a select few that you beat badly or the hands that are ahead of you preflop. I think that a reraise is a better way to get more chips out of your opponent and might even get them to push into you thinking you're just on a resteal.

There are honestly a lot of different ways to play this hand in this situation. This is just one way that, in my opinion, has a good chance of being called and extracting more chips out of your opponent.

[Yuv]

It has more to do with your villian stack than yours at this case. You want to see 5 cards there and he'll push if checked to him, so why bother? I'd push preflop almost regardless of my stack, when my opponent is shortstacked.

(barring of course a special read on the villian. If he's extremely super-tight, I might have to re-consider)

[betgo]

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In this case I'd probably not push, but rather come over the top with a raise of about 40% of my stack, or 2k. This basically states the same as a push, that you have a strong hand and you're willing to commit to the pot with it. The problem I see with a push is that you're only getting called by a hand that is willing to race - perhaps another big ace that you have dominated but also perhaps a small PP. You're limiting the hands that will call your bet to a select few that you beat badly or the hands that are ahead of you preflop. I think that a reraise is a better way to get more chips out of your opponent and might even get them to push into you thinking you're just on a resteal.

There are honestly a lot of different ways to play this hand in this situation. This is just one way that, in my opinion, has a good chance of being called and extracting more chips out of your opponent.

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There are only 2 players who haven't folded, the raiser with 2500 and the BB with 3000. I don't see a lot of difference between raising to 2000 and pushing. All the money is going in either way. I would just push. I guess there is some kind of psychological game to reraising all but a few chips, but I don't see the point in it.

[KramerTM]

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In this case I'd probably not push, but rather come over the top with a raise of about 40% of my stack, or 2k. This basically states the same as a push, that you have a strong hand and you're willing to commit to the pot with it. The problem I see with a push is that you're only getting called by a hand that is willing to race - perhaps another big ace that you have dominated but also perhaps a small PP. You're limiting the hands that will call your bet to a select few that you beat badly or the hands that are ahead of you preflop. I think that a reraise is a better way to get more chips out of your opponent and might even get them to push into you thinking you're just on a resteal.

There are honestly a lot of different ways to play this hand in this situation. This is just one way that, in my opinion, has a good chance of being called and extracting more chips out of your opponent.

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There are only 2 players who haven't folded, the raiser with 2500 and the BB with 3000. I don't see a lot of difference between raising to 2000 and pushing. All the money is going in either way. I would just push. I guess there is some kind of psychological game to reraising all but a few chips, but I don't see the point in it.

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The only point would be to vary your betting patterns, which probably matters very little given that this is an online tourney.

[Nordberg]

If you both have 4500 or more you can consider re-raising less than all in... but if he flat calls I think you have to push every flop. Its kind of a catch-22 because you probably get more calls from bigger aces if you just jam (looks more like a re-steal than AK imo), but you also get more calls from middle pairs. He's not going to love 88 if you re-raise to 1900 committing both of you if he decides to call or move in.

Most of the time I like re-raising smaller to appear strong to get my opponent to laydown middle pairs more often. Of course this leads to all sorts of interesting scenarios when I'm flat called /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you are against really bad players you can flat call more often, but really bad players also tend to call more all-ins, especially with hands that AK dominate.

[JonLines]

Wow you guys put a lot of thought into that.... I just insta-pushed, he only has 1955 left, i dont see the point of a re-raise in this situation or a flat call given I can win 950 uncontested if he folds, why extract the other. Is this really not an insta-push?! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Anyway... back to my original question, assuming it is an insta-push, how big would our stack have to be, with the same size blinds and raises, before you consider a call to play it from the flop?

Edit - By our I mean the Raisers (Villain) and mine (Hero's).

[KramerTM]

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how big would our stack have to be, with the same size blinds and raises, before you consider a call to play it from the flop?

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Both stacks have to be more than 10xBB deep (once the action gets to you) before I even consider additional chip extraction.

[JonLines]

Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

[KramerTM]

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Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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So read dependent determining the exact threshhold.

That said, if Villain is likely to call with most PP here, then I'm more likely to see a flop to either a) hit it and extract chips b) use a c-bet to get him to fold.

Note: The trickier/better the player, the more I am willing to push PF. Also, if OOP, I am more willing to push PF. If neither of these cirumstances are true, and I have more than 18-20BBs, then I probably take a flop. Especially if Villain has shown willingness to fold to a c-bet.

[ZeroPointMachine]

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Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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Another way to judge it is to look at how much you increase your stack by taking it down now. Any time I can increase my stack by 15% I am more than happy to push and take it down. In this case you are gaining 20%. That is too big of a chunk to get cute with. 10-15% is borderline. In this particular hand I would still push because villian's stack is not offering enough implied odds. If the combination of blinds and his raise were less than 500t I would consider a flat call or re-raise.

[KramerTM]

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Cheers KramerTM, thats the sort of answer I was looking for, I am not suggesting using in this situation, I was just wondering after I had played the hand, how big would stacks have to be for me to play the flop.

So you say at least 10BB just to consider, but at what point would you really start doing it? Obviously if raiser is really aggressive on any flop it changes things, but for your average Joe MTT player, what are you talking?

I was thinking neaer the 20BB mark before I would actually do it. In this case, Villian would still have 3400 left, which if I just re-raise leaves me pot commited (gonna be at least to 1500) but I might be able to extract a nicer ammount from a call.

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Another way to judge it is to look at how much you increase your stack by taking it down now. Any time I can increase my stack by 15% I am more than happy to push and take it down. In this case you are gaining 20%. That is too big of a chunk to get cute with. 10-15% is borderline. In this particular hand I would still push because villian's stack is not offering enough implied odds. If the combination of blinds and his raise were less than 500t I would consider a flat call or re-raise.

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Another good point. This suggestion and my suggestion should usually reconcile.

No need to push at that point, you could have risked your tournament on a coin flop ungainst and underpair. I would reraise and get more money in the pot if called and do a continuation if checked to me depending on the flop. If I hit a monster, I would definitely try to get more bets out of the villian. You're a long way from the money, and you need to win pots and steal blinds when possible. I'd try to win a pot with the AK rather than steal the blinds and push off the raiser.

[JonLines]

Cheers Zero, thats the sort of thing I wanted. 15% is probably the figure i work to as well, but i don't know why i do it! Is their any mathematical reason why you are doing this? Thanks.

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In this case I'd probably not push, but rather come over the top with a raise of about 40% of my stack, or 2k. This basically states the same as a push, that you have a strong hand and you're willing to commit to the pot with it. The problem I see with a push is that you're only getting called by a hand that is willing to race - perhaps another big ace that you have dominated but also perhaps a small PP. You're limiting the hands that will call your bet to a select few that you beat badly or the hands that are ahead of you preflop. I think that a reraise is a better way to get more chips out of your opponent and might even get them to push into you thinking you're just on a resteal.

There are honestly a lot of different ways to play this hand in this situation. This is just one way that, in my opinion, has a good chance of being called and extracting more chips out of your opponent.

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There are only 2 players who haven't folded, the raiser with 2500 and the BB with 3000. I don't see a lot of difference between raising to 2000 and pushing. All the money is going in either way. I would just push. I guess there is some kind of psychological game to reraising all but a few chips, but I don't see the point in it.

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You're actually right and I hadn't noticed the stack sizes. With slightly larger stacks this would be my line but in this case I guess a push is the same as a reraise. Putting in a smaller reraise to 1400 for the psychological factor of pulling in one opponent versus both (ie. it's less than half a 3k stack but more than half a 2k) is just over a minraise and too weak of a play so I'd say a push is the play here.

[nath]

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No need to push at that point, you could have risked your tournament on a coin flop ungainst and underpair. I would reraise and get more money in the pot if called and do a continuation if checked to me depending on the flop. If I hit a monster, I would definitely try to get more bets out of the villian. You're a long way from the money, and you need to win pots and steal blinds when possible. I'd try to win a pot with the AK rather than steal the blinds and push off the raiser.

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Did you pay attention the raiser's stack size? There's no reasonable reraise that won't have you putting him all in, and there's NO reraise where you can c-bet a flop without putting him all in.

And I know, yeah, coinflips and all, but do you seriously think he has a pair often enough to make pushing a bad play?

And can someone explain to me why avoiding gambles far from the money is a good idea?

[DonT77]

With AK in the SB or BB, I like to reraise at least 3x the villain's bet amount - which is the same amount that I would bet if I were on a resteal.

In this case the villain bet 600, so you're re-raise should be to around 1800; however, in most cases you won't want to raise more than 1/3 of your stack (or your opponent's stack) and then fold ATF - so both you and your opponent need to have at least 5400 chips in your stack to prevent you from getting pot-commmitted PF by raising 3x.

With anything less than 5400 chips (in your stack or his) your probably getting all of your chips in the middle; but, if you both had say 6000 or more chips you might be able to just raise 3x and play poker from there.

On second thought, even with 6000 chips a raise to 1800 represents 30% of your stack, so 6500-7000 is probably a better number. Anything below 7000 in your stack or his and I'm probably pushing.

From 7000-12000 chips you are in kind of a middle ground where if you raise 3x and then CB (continuation bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot) you are still committing a major portion of your chips to the pot - so I might be more inclined to flat call PF and play poker from there.

With 12000 or more chips you can re-raise to 1800 and then CB the flop if you want to without getting PC'd.

[elmitchbo]

classic accumulation vs. survival argument. some people say get chips in the middle with any edge, some people say don't risk it.

to the OP....i think it's an insta push given the stack sizes. it gives him a chance to fold if he was getting frisky with something like KJs. if he has QQ-TT you can live with a race. best case scenario... he calls with AQ or worse.

considering fold equity and the possible range of hands he could play there you have to be better than a coin flip.