Clear AK throwaway?

[Pirc Defense]

AK is surely my bane. Can't play'em a lick when they don't hit the flop. Likewise if they do.

Paradise $50-$1.

I complete the SB with A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif after two limpers. I vary whether I raise with AKo for deception. BB raises and everyone calls to see a flop of Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif. No way am I betting this flop. I used to but now my thinking goes like this: I don't have the odds to the gutshot, I may be drawing dead to a flopped straight as T9 is a viable limping hand, and my six outs may be counterfeited as they complete straights for anyone with a T and either a K/A. Also, semi-bluffing against three opponents at this level is rarely the correct play; they're not going anywhere. On top of all this, there is two flush on the board, which also potentially reduces my outs.

I check, the preflop raiser bets and I fold. For the curious, the board ended up Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. A limper had KJ and the raiser had AA.

Who else decides not to play on after this flop?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

With that flop and several loose players who have called a pre-flop raise, I'd check the flop. I might call one bet, but I'd fold to a bet and a raise. However, check-fold is another quite viable, and perhaps even better option. Remember, AK is a drawing hand, you need to hit some kind of flop to be continuing on in multiway pots with it. This situation was kinda sketchy, so folding is fine with me.

al

[rkiray]

Based on this post and the JJ post I believe you are playing too passively and worrying too much about your opponents cards (it's very important to think about them, just don't get paranoid about it). Of course in this type of game it can be very difficult to tell what anyone is playing. Your high card outs could be good (I would heavily discount them but I would not totally rule them out). BTW, you did have enough odds to call the gut-shot. You don't have the pot odds but on the flop you only need about 8-1 implied odds to call a gut shot, especially since you are last to act. There are at least 9 bets in this pot (you didn't say what the limpers did). All in all I think this is a clear check call. BTW, check my profile for a thread titled something like "Odds needed to call a gut shot". Homer provides a very clear explanation in that thread on why you only need 8-1 implied odds.

[Ed Miller]

You should have raised preflop. Why are you using deception against players who will call you down anyway (as you say later in the post)? Deception is for use against opponents who make folds when they should (and you don't want them to), not against calling stations. To be honest, I think you don't raise AK because "AK is surely your bane"... you are scared of the hand, not for deception. Next time please raise it like you know you should. Timid poker is not winning poker.

When you flop a gutshot with AK, generally you aren't going anywhere on the flop. This hand should be no exception. You have three outs to the nuts (you talk about drawing dead against T9... umm... a T gives you a winner against T9). The relatively few players mean that someone having diamonds is not particularly likely. Your overcard outs might be good as well. Once you get to the turn and don't improve, you have to decide what kind of hand the BB might have and therefore how good you think your overcard outs are.

[bernie]

call.

preflop...fine

flop...your call closes the action. you have a gutshot. depending on the BB raising standards from this spot youre A or K may not be good. you have a 3 out gutshot, but you can also improve to a flush draw to the 2nd nut. if the BB is a looser raiser from this spot your A or K could be good if one hits, giving you 5 more immediate outs. an Ad hitting wouldnt be too bad though. one bad thing if an A hits is someone could have 2 pair. id rather have the K hit. something to think about.

but unless it's 2 bets to me, id call this.

b

[Pirc Defense]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. It may seem that I'm playing too passively based on some hands that I've posted. I used to play hyper aggressively, but learned that, for example, semi-bluffing just isn't a sound practice at the level I play at. People just won't fold, whether they should or not. So I'm trying to pick my spots more wisely. If the board is tightly coordinated or there is two flush on the flop, and I'm against more than two opponents, semi-bluffing has turned out to be a long term losing play.

For what it's worth, there are some clear leaks in my game. I mentioned in another post that after 700+ hours at $.50-$1 at/on Paradise, I've lost $.56/hour. First goal is to figure out how to make a 1/2 BB correction in my game to get to playing even, and then tweak from there. Could it be that hard?

I recently have been reading Middle Limit Hold'em by Caffione and Brier. Seems like a great book and I recommended it. I don't know if my play echoes their recommendations or not, but I recently (last 15 or so hours of playing) have tried to check my agression, as SEEMS to be recommended in MLHE, when it's not the right spot.

As opposed to playing passively, which I prefer to not do, I believe I am trying to be more selectively agressive.

So in the hand I posted here, it seems that hanging around for what could very well be a split pot just isn't worth it, and I'd be check-calling to boot. What if the A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif falls? Do I count that as an out when I see the flop come down? MLHE seems to suggest not. I'm trying to implement that thinking. Either way at that point I hold one pair and the nut flush draw against a possible flush or a made straight.

But after saying all this, I am a losing poker player. Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I appreciate your responses and your taking the time to respond to my hand postings.

[J.R.]

What if the A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif falls? Do I count that as an out when I see the flop come down? MLHE seems to suggest not.

MLHE did a great job of assisting the development of my hand reading and made me more concious of the importance of nut-draws and re-draws in big pots. It also made me fear monsters under my bed. If you have top pair, top kicker, a gutshot (albeit on a three-flush board) and the nut flush draw, you should like your chances. Whether the A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif gives you top pair will likely be revealed to you by the turn betting, but with the nut flush draw you aren't folding.

[Homer]

Preflop - Raise. Screw using deception against these opponents.

Flop - Bet or check-call. Don't fold. Your overcard outs are probably good against only two opponents, and you have a gutshot straight draw and flush draw as well. You have to see the turn at least.

It sounds like you are playing a tad weak-tight. I went through a phase like this as well, shortly after going through an overly aggressive phase. I think I've found a nice balance in the middle. Hopefully your aggressiveness will pick up and you'll find a nice balance, too.

(I realize I'm evaluating your game based on one hand, so I could easily be wrong. If I am, just ignore me. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif)

-- Homer

[Pirc Defense]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
When you flop a gutshot with AK, generally you aren't going anywhere on the flop. This hand should be no exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

majorkong, thank for your reply.

If you have AK and flop a gutshot, it means there are at least two cards on the flop that are in the playing zone (9 or higher). In this case, there was a Q and a J, and QJ is a common limping hand. Either way, to me it seems that when one of my overcards hits, it makes a straight much more likely, because people are going to be hanging around with cards that are all over a flop like this. Their draw may also be an open-ended, though not always to the nut. Other common limping hands like KJ and KQ are helped much more than me when a K hits.

This board is so highly coordinated that hanging around doesn't seem to make much money. But I've seen you post here for quite some time and people seem to respect your opinion so you're probably correct. Either way I appreciate you helping me think this stuff through.

[bernie]

"People just won't fold, whether they should or not. So I'm trying to pick my spots more wisely."

this should affect your betting. not whether you should call or not. look at your pot odds and position for the call. obviously semi bluffs arent going to work, but that doesnt mean the hand is unplayable. it's not a bet-raise/fold situation

b