Party rakeback

[pyroponic]

It appears that there is an excellent chance that many of us who have lost rakeback will now be able to get a rate of about 25%. I don't know about you guys, but this is awesome news. I was starting to worry that I might have had to cut back on the lavish lifestyle that I have been accustomed to /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm curious how things would have changed if there was not going to be anymore rakeback on Party, how would this change things for pros/semi-pros (I'm assuming $5/10 6-max or higher).

[wackjob]

I think I'd wackoff a lot more.

[Victor]

i was gonna move up in stakes immediatelly so the rake has less effect.

[pyroponic]

Why not, what could be more satisfying than instant gratification?

[intensify1]

uhm....Ditto

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
i was gonna move up in stakes immediatelly so the rake has less effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

ha fu...

[wackjob]

Victor had a good idea there. I think that makes a lot of sense. Play higher stakes and less tables for me to counter the rake and lack of RB, while wacking off a lot more of course.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
It appears that there is an excellent chance that many of us who have lost rakeback will now be able to get a rate of about 25%. I don't know about you guys, but this is awesome news.

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone burns you with cigarette butts, you don't thank them for their kindness in not beating you with a bicycle chain. I am irate about Party's separation and their buddy-buddying with the affiliates to resume [censored] us in the ass.

Wtf did these affiliates do to earn thousands of dollars from me? It was bad enough when they were earning 2.5% of my rake, but now they are going to be gouging us for 5% with the tacit approval of Party Poker. Unbelievable.

[angst]

I have been scouting the rakeback forum obsessively the last couple of days, as I'm sure others here have as well. This is good news if it is legitimate and if it lasts. Thus far I have read so many conflicting things from apparently credible sources that I think I will wait it out a little.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
Victor had a good idea there. I think that makes a lot of sense. Play higher stakes and less tables for me to counter the rake and lack of RB, while wacking off a lot more of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought, especially since they increase the rake recently from $2 to $3, although I think Victor might have been partially alluding to this thread:

Moving to full limit ring (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=3619546&For um=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main= 3619546&Search=true&where=&Name=20411&daterange=&n ewerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev= #Post3619546)

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It appears that there is an excellent chance that many of us who have lost rakeback will now be able to get a rate of about 25%. I don't know about you guys, but this is awesome news.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf did these affiliates do to earn thousands of dollars from me? It was bad enough when they were earning 2.5% of my rake, but now they are going to be gouging us for 5% with the tacit approval of Party Poker. Unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree...it'd be so much better to say fuk the affiliates go directly through Dikshit.

I don't think we said that we were happy about Party dropping our rates to 25%; however, we are extremely happy to get 25% when we were scared of getting 0%.

My options that I was considering were

Absolure w/rakeback and bonus
Pokerstars w/lower rake structure
Partypoker w/o rakeback
Move up in limit :]

Possibly a combination of them all.

Oh, and you guys don't wackoff while playing? I get pretty sore after a 3 hour session.

[Jeff W]

All I gotta say is... Dikshit better stay out of my 'hood.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think we said that we were happy about Party dropping our rates to 25%; however, we are extremely happy to get 25% when we were scared of getting 0%.

My options that I was considering were

Absolure w/rakeback and bonus
Pokerstars w/lower rake structure
Partypoker w/o rakeback
Move up in limit :]

Possibly a combination of them all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I think most of the $10/20 players here would continue to play on Party without rakeback before even thinking of playing on either Pokerstars or Absolute, so IMO 25% at this point is gold. But of course this is just my opinion.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Victor had a good idea there. I think that makes a lot of sense. Play higher stakes and less tables for me to counter the rake and lack of RB, while wacking off a lot more of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought, especially since they increase the rake recently from $2 to $3, although I think Victor might have been partially alluding to this thread:

Moving to full limit ring (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=3619546&For um=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main= 3619546&Search=true&where=&Name=20411&daterange=&n ewerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev= #Post3619546)

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

i assure you i did not have that thread in mind.

i have actually already moved to 15/30 and 20/40 the last couple days along with scouting the 30/60. all the games look great actually.

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
Wtf did these affiliates do to earn thousands of dollars from me? It was bad enough when they were earning 2.5% of my rake, but now they are going to be gouging us for 5% with the tacit approval of Party Poker. Unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

affiliates are like car salesmen. they have an incentive to take you on at any amount under what theyre receiving from party. so treat them like car salesmen.
step 1: go to affiliate a and get the best deal you can. tell them youll think about it.
step 2: go to affiliate b and say "someone offered me x%. will you beat that?" if they say no, forget them. but they wont, theyll say yes because theyd rather have less free money than nothing. if they say yes, tell them youll think about it. go back to affiliate a and repeat (or some new one if you want.)

with a tiny bit of work you should be able to secure yourself as close as you want to the % an affiliate is actually getting. and many will sweeten the pot with deals, contests, freerolls, etc.

since 25% is out there, affiliates (some at least) are getting 30 (edit: probably. im not an affiliate and dont know any personally). its a longshot, but 35 might be out there (if not right away then possible for some affiliates to attain.)

[Jeff W]

Robk,

Good post. This is what I did last time to get a good rate at Eurobet. This time, it seems that affiliates are colluding to keep the offers at 25%. At some point, it may not be worth it to try to squeeze an extra 2.5% out, because every day I don't play is $1-$2k down the drain.

And yes, there are affiliates out there getting 35% from Party right now(those with the highest MGRs).

-Jeff

[etizzle]

the reverse situation can also be true (if they were to collude)

depends on who can really afford to play hardball

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
the reverse situation can also be true (if they were to collude)

depends on who can really afford to play hardball

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically from what I see, Party is being more selective with the affiliates they are approving for rakeback deals, whereas when Empire and Eurobet around they were allowing everyone and their mothers to sign up anyone. The affiliate competition on the skins drove the players' rakeback percentages up, and the profit margins for the affiliates down. But now if there are many less affiliates through Party, they could implicitly collude to keep the rate at an "established" percentage. Why go into a price war and risk everything you have when you can sit back and keep everyone happy? Basically it's why Coke and Pepsi price the same for their 12 oz. cans and 20 oz. bottles. However, this is one possible scenario out of many. Ultimately Party has the power to basically choose which one will materialize.

[Robk]

jeffw,

youre right that were paying a price by waiting. but if youre right about 35% being out there it may be a matter of 7.5%+ , not 2.5%. and the cost of waiting isnt really as bad as you make it out to be. its a fraction of your earn as the skins network is still playable, and of course there are other options.

if affiliates were to collude, that would be a very difficult thing to enforce amongst themselves. i can keep a secret, and maybe some affiliates can too. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
j
if affiliates were to collude, that would be a very difficult thing to enforce amongst themselves. i can keep a secret, and maybe some affiliates can too. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well one thing that is different here is I believe explicit collusion would be legal whereas is is illegal for U.S. corporations selling in similar markets. It would be hard to enforce the agreements, and the more affiliates there are greater chance someone will defect. That's why if Party limits itself to a limited amount of affiliates, then I believe this type of collusion (implicit or explicit) is possible and may be even probable. All it takes is for one large affiliate to show the other what is at stakes if someone decides to cheat in one period to increase their profits and steal the some of the other affiliate's business away.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wtf did these affiliates do to earn thousands of dollars from me? It was bad enough when they were earning 2.5% of my rake, but now they are going to be gouging us for 5% with the tacit approval of Party Poker. Unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

affiliates are like car salesmen. they have an incentive to take you on at any amount under what theyre receiving from party. so treat them like car salesmen.
step 1: go to affiliate a and get the best deal you can. tell them youll think about it.
step 2: go to affiliate b and say "someone offered me x%. will you beat that?" if they say no, forget them. but they wont, theyll say yes because theyd rather have less free money than nothing. if they say yes, tell them youll think about it. go back to affiliate a and repeat (or some new one if you want.)

with a tiny bit of work you should be able to secure yourself as close as you want to the % an affiliate is actually getting. and many will sweeten the pot with deals, contests, freerolls, etc.

since 25% is out there, affiliates (some at least) are getting 30 (edit: probably. im not an affiliate and dont know any personally). its a longshot, but 35 might be out there (if not right away then possible for some affiliates to attain.)

[/ QUOTE ]



I do know they get a lot of pressure from their affiliate managers to not give more than a certain amount. I don't know anyone who got more than 30% at Eurobet. if they did, the affiliate would have to trust that person enough to not tell anyone. if word got out that someone was getting 32% then everyone would want 32% and the affiliate managers would be pissed. Even 30% was somewhat hush hush. All the Eurobet offers made you email them to request an offer.

it's very possible Party said that if they pay out >25%, they lose their affiliateship and forfeit any money they've accrued. if that's the case, it's not worth a big time affiliate risking his whole business for one person's 3%

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
I do know they get a lot of pressure from their affiliate managers to not give more than a certain amount. I don't know anyone who got more than 30% at Eurobet. if they did, the affiliate would have to trust that person enough to not tell anyone. if word got out that someone was getting 32% then everyone would want 32% and the affiliate managers would be pissed. Even 30% was somewhat hush hush. All the Eurobet offers made you email them to request an offer.

it's very possible Party said that if they pay out >25%, they lose their affiliateship and forfeit any money they've accrued. if that's the case, it's not worth a big time affiliate risking his whole business for one person's 3%

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting, thanks for the post. i dont understand the incentive party has to keep the rakeback % down though, why would they rather the affiliates have it than the players? it seems to me theyd rather give it to the players (some of whom it will keep in action longer). what am i missing?

do you think im wrong to wait? whats your plan?

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
interesting, thanks for the post. i dont understand the incentive party has to keep the rakeback % down though, why would they rather the affiliates have it than the players? it seems to me theyd rather give it to the players (some of whom it will keep in action longer). what am i missing?

do you think im wrong to wait? whats your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think waiting for a few days is probably the best thing to do until there is a general idea of how the rakeback situation is going. Now regarding the player rakeback percentages, I think what is probably happening is that Party is giving a smaller percentage of the MGR back to the affiliate, which in turn makes the rakeback percentages for players smaller. I highly doubt the affilates are making more money now that Empire and Eurobet are gone.

[wackjob]

I think it is a good time for everyone to log onto some obscure poker site and play SUPER MANIAC at the .10/.20 tables. Please let me know your site so I can be there to collect.

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
Now regarding the player rakeback percentages, I think what is probably happening is that Party is giving a smaller percentage of the MGR back to the affiliate, which in turn makes the rakeback percentages for players smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i suspected at first, and it makes sense. but jeffw said that the highest %s are available to party affiliates, and i believe him.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do know they get a lot of pressure from their affiliate managers to not give more than a certain amount. I don't know anyone who got more than 30% at Eurobet. if they did, the affiliate would have to trust that person enough to not tell anyone. if word got out that someone was getting 32% then everyone would want 32% and the affiliate managers would be pissed. Even 30% was somewhat hush hush. All the Eurobet offers made you email them to request an offer.

it's very possible Party said that if they pay out >25%, they lose their affiliateship and forfeit any money they've accrued. if that's the case, it's not worth a big time affiliate risking his whole business for one person's 3%

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting, thanks for the post. i dont understand the incentive party has to keep the rakeback % down though, why would they rather the affiliates have it than the players? it seems to me theyd rather give it to the players (some of whom it will keep in action longer). what am i missing?

do you think im wrong to wait? whats your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]


well I don't know for sure, but I think originally it was capped at 30%. then Empire went to 35%, most likely due to competition from Eurobet. I would think that Party would rather not have affiliates bitching that they need 35% from them or people will go play on Prima or something.

as much bad things as I've said about Party not knowing how to run a business, man are they looking good now. they have all of us where they want us. I'm surprised they are even giving 30%

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

FWIW...I got 32% on Eurobet w/ an affiliate w/ a banner on 2+2

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

Any idea how this would work for those with existing accts.?

Thanks. PT

[Victor]

go to internet and affiliate forums. theres about 45 threads there.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW...I got 32% on Eurobet w/ an affiliate w/ a banner on 2+2

[/ QUOTE ]


in that case I guess robk is right, but there definitely is a force pushing in the other direction even if it's not strong enough to overcome people getting such high rates.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

[ QUOTE ]
in that case I guess robk is right, but there definitely is a force pushing in the other direction even if it's not strong enough to overcome people getting such high rates.

[/ QUOTE ]
sure. why let people used to making more. HUSH multitablers (I was just playing 5/10 when I signed up) are worth a bit more to affiliates than many.

It was one of the smaller affiliates, and I need a little more than most.

[MicroBob]

I don't see what the big hurry is to set it up RIGHT NOW anyway.


I am kind of forced to wait anyway though as I have won 4 seats in the November PPM semi-finals so that is $1k worth of tourney-entries that I have in my current Party account (and it's my understanding that I would probably have to close my old acct to set up a new one safely).
My 'concern' right now is what if I actually win my seat on the cruise on my current Party account? Probably can't very easily close my account then I wouldn't think...and I feel it might be slightly risky to set up a new account while my current one is still active.

etc etc. Who knows what will happen?
But it looks promising for RB to come in the semi-near future so I'm reasonably happy about that of course.

[billyjex]

i have a somewhat similar problem with my account, in that i won a cruise on the PPM million (not the WPT entry, just the cruise. they gave out 5 seats in a half million guaranteed for 10th,20th,30th,40th and 50th, and i got 10th.)

so I'm not really sure what is going to happen to that if I decide to make a new account..

[MILFChaser]

As a Party affiliate, I have never lost the ability to give individual rewards to players. Party took away the individual trackers from affiliates who were stealing their players and sending them to Empire. I stayed loyal to Party and did not engage in this.

Use some common sense people, Party is going to give back to the people who were loyal to them. If you sign up with an affiliate who has screwed Party in the past and you dont expect Party to screw them in the future, you need your heads examined.

Guys,

There are too many misconceptions floating around here. My home poker game partner and I have worked as affiliates with Party for 2 years and know all of the ins and outs concerning account setups, account freezings, affiliate pay structures, and rakeback policies. I hope nothing I say spoils what major affiliates are trying to do with rakeback, but there is a deception line.

First of all "affiliate" does not mean "rakeback". That's what us winning players interpret it to mean. I have been an affiliate for 22 months now and out of the 140 player accounts that I've signed up, NONE of them involved rakeback. At least not until everything happened this weekend (but that's another story). I assure you guys, that not all affiliates offer rakeback. The ones you see, the ones that are directly involved with winning power players, the ones that you've all dealt with on Empire, Eurobet, and other sites are the ONLY ones offering rake return. Almost every one of the fish we play with, as well as every 'casual' player, belongs to an affiliate too, but they don't get a single red cent back at the end of each month. And contrary to popular belief, affiliates don't work nearly as close to Party as you may think.

[ QUOTE ]
When someone burns you with cigarette butts, you don't thank them for their kindness in not beating you with a bicycle chain. I am irate about Party's separation and their buddy-buddying with the affiliates to resume [censored] us in the ass.

Wtf did these affiliates do to earn thousands of dollars from me? It was bad enough when they were earning 2.5% of my rake, but now they are going to be gouging us for 5% with the tacit approval of Party Poker. Unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of this was Party Poker's doing. Party doesn't offer rakeback, or even have the slightest idea of how much you or anyone else was getting from a skin affiliate. The reason that rakeback affiliates can't offer as much on Party as the could on the skins is simple. They just don't get enough to offer. The affiliates have no control over this, as their percentages were higher on all of the skins.

[ QUOTE ]
since 25% is out there, affiliates (some at least) are getting 30 (edit: probably. im not an affiliate and dont know any personally). its a longshot, but 35 might be out there (if not right away then possible for some affiliates to attain.)

[/ QUOTE ]
25% is the standard maximum on a single account. 30% is the absolute maximum if affiliate and sub-affiliate accounts are joined (against Party Poker policy). 35% does not exist.

[ QUOTE ]
This is what I did last time to get a good rate at Eurobet. This time, it seems that affiliates are colluding to keep the offers at 25%

[/ QUOTE ]
No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them.

[ QUOTE ]
I do know they get a lot of pressure from their affiliate managers to not give more than a certain amount. I don't know anyone who got more than 30% at Eurobet. if they did, the affiliate would have to trust that person enough to not tell anyone. if word got out that someone was getting 32% then everyone would want 32% and the affiliate managers would be pissed. Even 30% was somewhat hush hush. All the Eurobet offers made you email them to request an offer.

it's very possible Party said that if they pay out >25%, they lose their affiliateship and forfeit any money they've accrued. if that's the case, it's not worth a big time affiliate risking his whole business for one person's 3%

[/ QUOTE ]
Any affiliate mananger that pressures an affiliate to do ANYTHING concerning rakeback (also against Party Poker policy) is a rotten egg. I speak to my manager all the time and he is adamant when he says that Party Poker does not condone rakeback in any way, shape or form. At this point, Party is probably turning their heads the other way when it comes to rakeback investigation in an attempt to regain all of the accounts that were lost to skins. Party Poker doesn't set any amounts for players to receive. They pay the affiliates, and what the affiliates do after that is beyond Party's control (unless, of course, Party decides they don't like what they see).


The whole point of this post is to clear up existing fallacies about Party's role in what happened over the weekend. They didn't make all of these changes to screw over any players or affiliates. They just want their players back. I, myself have never downloaded or used a skin. I have always played on Party itself, and I guess I'm lucky in that sense.

What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss. The skins were set up to help party grow into a bigger site than it was. Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them. Party wants nothing more than to bring those people back. The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with. So, consider anything at all to be a huge bonus on top of your poker winnings. As far as Party Poker is concerned (and rightfully so), they aren't screwing anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
As a Party affiliate, I have never lost the ability to give individual rewards to players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how that's possible unless it was an oversight.

We (my partner and I) never engaged in rakeback offers and worked about as closely to Party Poker as anyone could. On top of that, we had 20-30 players on each tracker. Our trackers were still blocked about 8 months ago regardless. This is the first case I'm hearing of such a thing out of 40 or so instances.

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]


so I'm not really sure what is going to happen to that if I decide to make a new account..

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this even possible? I moved to Empire because from what I knew, starting a new account with Party wasn't possible.

Unless you are planning to make the account under a different name, of course.

[MyTurn2Raise]

POTD

[MILFChaser]

Everyone, please listen to this man. (Our House) 2+2 has been the land of the blind lately and his vision seems to be 20/20 from his post.

OurHouse, I did not say I gave rewards to my players. Like you I have always kept it simple. I do have the option though.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss. The skins were set up to help party grow into a bigger site than it was. Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them. Party wants nothing more than to bring those people back. The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with. So, consider anything at all to be a huge bonus on top of your poker winnings. As far as Party Poker is concerned (and rightfully so), they aren't screwing anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to hold back a little from what I was originally going to post.

Party is not infallible. You view all their actions through rose colored glasses. Their separation from the skins was a naked grab for power/money. How can you say that they were not trying to screw affiliates and players? They didn't even warn the skins in advance.

I refuse to look at the money I made from rakeback on the skins as a priviledge. I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to Party's coffers. They want to gouge me for even more. Period.

As for the comments you made on 35% MGR being impossible and the absence of collusion, I'd caution you to be careful about rushing to uninformed conclusions.

Common sense dictates that Party would offer greater incentives to their biggest affiliates when Eurobet and Empire were undercutting them with better return rates.

Also, it is in Party's best interest that no rate undercutting or fradulent account creation occurs in the future, so they have great incentive to place a cieling on rakeback rates. 25% is not a reasonable market determined rate because 1. the market hasn't had time to set a price and 2. the previous rates on other skins resulted in a 2.5% MGR profit to affiliates and the remainder went to the players. Right now, 5%(or more depending on whether you deny greater incentives for big MGR affiliates) is going to affiliates in these 25% deals.

You have made a lot of bold statements with an air of absolute authority, but you did not offer proof to refute my two earlier claims. I believe you were hasty in your judgments. There is more going on behind the scenes than you realize.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to hold back a little from what I was originally going to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to make my second post sound less angry... Oh well, I give up. It's been a rough week as I'm losing thousands of dollars waiting for the rakeback waters to clear up after Party blindsided all of us.

I just wasted 10 minutes of my life responding to your last post only to find you deleted it on me.

I only put that post up in an attempt to be helpful to the players that frequent this forum.

Now, I refuse to spend anymore time with you on this. You're entitled to your opinions.

[bugstud]

I think most the issues are out in the clear. my question is are the eixsting affiliate accounts going to be paid and thus the people that had RB on party will get it once more?

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been an affiliate for 22 months now and out of the 140 player accounts that I've signed up, NONE of them involved rakeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you explain how you know so much about the inner working of rakeback deals if you've never offered them?

[ QUOTE ]
25% is the standard maximum on a single account. 30% is the absolute maximum if affiliate and sub-affiliate accounts are joined (against Party Poker policy). 35% does not exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you comment on the post earlier in this thread claiming to have gotten 32%?

[ QUOTE ]
No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its interesting that you seem to love the competitive forces of the free market here...

[ QUOTE ]
Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
...and despise them here, and in the rest of your rant about how players don't "deserve" whatever pay they can negotiate in a free market.

[ QUOTE ]
I speak to my manager all the time and he is adamant when he says that Party Poker does not condone rakeback in any way, shape or form. At this point, Party is probably turning their heads the other way when it comes to rakeback investigation in an attempt to regain all of the accounts that were lost to skins.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is my biggest concern. I can easily see Party waiting for x length of time and then simply turning rakeback off again.

[Erik W]

"No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them."


Competitive market rate, come on, u serious?
Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players.

They can do that because the players are not organized at all, not even the top pros on WPT etc.

In golf and other games the top pros is being paid for providing television coverage. In poker they have to pay themselves and contest for their own money while the WPT and
makes big bucks on television coverage.


It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.

That is a working market rate.

[DMBFan23]

Hi Jeff,

some good points here.

[ QUOTE ]
Party is not infallible. You view all their actions through rose colored glasses. Their separation from the skins was a naked grab for power/money. How can you say that they were not trying to screw affiliates and players? They didn't even warn the skins in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this was definitely a dick move. I also think it was brilliant on their part, even though it made a nice hassle for me.

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to look at the money I made from rakeback on the skins as a priviledge. I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to Party's coffers. They want to gouge me for even more. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate that I'll be making less than I was before, but isn't party really [censored] the affiliates here? I mean I can't really shed a tear cause a lot of them made/will make MAD bank, but from Party's end it's the same market as before right? They pay affiliates to sign up players, and from there isn't the deal done from party's end? except for their vested interest in no rakeback, i.e. by not allowing rakeback they can minimize percentage wars...right? It doesnt seem to me like they're robbing from the players and giving it to the dikshit.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it is in Party's best interest that no rate undercutting or fradulent account creation occurs in the future, so they have great incentive to place a cieling on rakeback rates. 25% is not a reasonable market determined rate because 1. the market hasn't had time to set a price and 2. the previous rates on other skins resulted in a 2.5% MGR profit to affiliates and the remainder went to the players. Right now, 5%(or more depending on whether you deny greater incentives for big MGR affiliates) is going to affiliates in these 25% deals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this follows from (or just plain is?) the end of my last statement, but yeah I can see how party would want this. I wonder if Empire/Eurobet sets a precedent here, because that market seemed like it was about to stabilize but even at the end it was growing slowly. Perhaps Party is setting a cap early? I dunno. I hear lots of rumors on this but nothing substantiated.

anyways just rambling, hope everything gets worked out soon

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have been an affiliate for 22 months now and out of the 140 player accounts that I've signed up, NONE of them involved rakeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you explain how you know so much about the inner working of rakeback deals if you've never offered them?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do I have to offer them to know about them? Does something special happen when I give the money to a player? I maintain my trackers and affiliate stats just like everyone else.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
25% is the standard maximum on a single account. 30% is the absolute maximum if affiliate and sub-affiliate accounts are joined (against Party Poker policy). 35% does not exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you comment on the post earlier in this thread claiming to have gotten 32%?

[/ QUOTE ]
I will be glad to comment when I see someone get 32% for 3 months or longer, not just as an offer.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Instead, the independently operated sister sites and skin affiliate managers used these skins as a vehicle to steal existing players away from Party and move those players over to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
...and despise them here, and in the rest of your rant about how players don't "deserve" whatever pay they can negotiate in a free market.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said players don't deserve rakeback. Save quotation marks for when you are actually quoting someone. I'm not an advocate against rakeback, I'm an advocate for it. Remember, I'm still a strategy poster and a player. Rakeback = +EV.

The fact still remains that we cheated the system to be able to receive rakeback. That goes for all of us (players, affiliates, affiliate managers) ALL OF US. The result:
A community of spoiled poker players and affiliates who consider rakeback as an entitlement that is immune to repossession. Everyone gets caught doing something they weren't allowed to do in the first place and the whining begins. Live with it.

When I started playing online 3 years ago, there were no seperate affiliate trackers and there was no rakeback. If everyone else started there, they would look at it the same way I do. Online poker is wonderful; rakeback is a GIFT. I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I speak to my manager all the time and he is adamant when he says that Party Poker does not condone rakeback in any way, shape or form. At this point, Party is probably turning their heads the other way when it comes to rakeback investigation in an attempt to regain all of the accounts that were lost to skins.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is my biggest concern. I can easily see Party waiting for x length of time and then simply turning rakeback off again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could easily happen.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
"No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them."


Competitive market rate, come on, u serious?
Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players.

They can do that because the players are not organized at all, not even the top pros on WPT etc.

In golf and other games the top pros is being paid for providing television coverage. In poker they have to pay themselves and contest for their own money while the WPT and
makes big bucks on television coverage.


It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.

That is a working market rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally a voice of reason.

No point in blaming Party for being "greedy", that's just how the world works. We can only blame ourselves for not fighting back in an intelligent way. Party is a business, and each of us is a business. We should behave like a business.

[gildwulf]

Since when did it become OK to discuss rakeback on strategy forums? Is it because it affects the mods' bottom line now?

Ummm...

Unfortunately, Party holds the upper hand in this relationship. Business is business, but if they don't like our business, they can shut it down. We can't do that to them, so I would advise proceeding with caution. They can cut off players/affiliates, close accounts, take our money and there ain't SH!T we can do about it. They are fully aware that they offer the best product on the market for our needs.

Also, don't think that Party didn't anticipate this whole rakeback thing. They aren't stupid. There's a reason so many affiliates got their trackers released. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to get away with things when we can, and I don't work directly for Party (even though it sounds that way sometimes), but it's in our best interest not to piss them off or jeopardize our accounts.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Competitive market rate, come on, u serious?
Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players...

It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it... That is a working market rate.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have a seriously flawed understanding of economic theory.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
They can cut off players/affiliates, close accounts, take our money and there ain't SH!T we can do about it. They are fully aware that they offer the best product on the market for our needs.


[/ QUOTE ]

You overestimate the intellect and strategic expertise of a company like Party Poker. I work in consulting and most companies don't have any idea what is going on at a granular level in their business. In the most likely scenario Party does not really connect the dots between affiliates and high-volume players/sharks.

Instead, they look at metrics which say, "Affiliates bring in xyz number of players which produces $xyz which is xyz% of our revenue. Of those players we estimate 40% would have played with us anyways. 100% of rake * 40% of these players < 70% of rake * 100% of these players (after paying the affiliates 30%)." That's the equation. I would bet dollars to donuts that they are not dissecting the situation at a more granular or segmented level because A: most companies just never get that granular with their revenue segments, and B: Party is a young company with a ton of growth and profit and this is the type of company that hasn't ever been forced to 'tighten up' on revenues and cost modeling, so they are especially unlikely to look at it this way.

You're right, they CAN cut us off, but it's only in the same way I CAN be an astronaut and go to the moon. But trust me, Party ain't saying, "Boy, we sure got those multitabling sharks by the balls on this one." You're looking at it as if the Party execs are one of us, alert to the ins and outs of the tables and the "poker community" and the different types of players. They are aware of the differences between players, but not at such a level that they can totally screw us somehow.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Could you comment on the post earlier in this thread claiming to have gotten 32%?

[/ QUOTE ]
I will be glad to comment when I see someone get 32% for 3 months or longer, not just as an offer.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if you missed the following post or you know more about his affiliate deal than what he posted:

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW...I got 32% on Eurobet w/ an affiliate w/ a banner on 2+2

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you could help me clear something up, or fill in something that I'm missing. Why does Party care what an affiliate does with the money they receive? Are they trying to establish some de facto control on a company's spending and budgeting?

EDIT: spel gut

[DMBFan23]

Johnny,

why have affiliates had their individual trackers removed then? I think Party is very aware of RB

[trickymartin]

[ QUOTE ]

It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an excellent idea, I'm in.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do you consider the tens (hundreds?) of thousands I'm sure you've made off your 140 signups?

I'm sure it was very, very hard work, and that the money barely compensates for all your time and effort.

[ChicagoTroy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an excellent idea, I'm in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Erik, a new thread is in order. Letting folks know about collective bargaining before they start signing up new accounts would be a good idea.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
"No collusion is involved. There are way too many affiliates for this to be possible. What you are seeing is a reasonable, competitive market rate based on what's available to them."


Competitive market rate, come on, u serious?
Reasonable. They try to get as much money they want and don't care about the players.

They can do that because the players are not organized at all, not even the top pros on WPT etc.

In golf and other games the top pros is being paid for providing television coverage. In poker they have to pay themselves and contest for their own money while the WPT and
makes big bucks on television coverage.


It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.

That is a working market rate.

[/ QUOTE ]



I do know that there is a group of people planning on doing this. it's like small players' unions. whereas one person matters very little to an affiliate, if you could offer him 10 people and 200k hands a month that is pretty appealing.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It would be great if 100s of semipros on 2+2 could make a deal and get out and ask for the best rakeback rate and the affiliate with the best offer gets it. If he sees he can make 10000s of dollars getting 1.5% he might take that instead of not getting anything at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an excellent idea, I'm in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Erik, a new thread is in order. Letting folks know about collective bargaining before they start signing up new accounts would be a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
You guys really need to get out of HUSH more. Go to the Internet Forum and let O' Doyle know you're interested, and under what circumstances you would join such a group (ie rakeback v. tourney/travel packages).

[7ontheline]

I thought ODoyle was setting something up for a new startup site though.

[RunDownHouse]

I was under the impression he was looking to bargain with any site that would hear his proposals, but thought that such a site was far more likely to be a startup than an established site.

I could be wrong though, I haven't followed the whole thing too closely.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
Johnny,

why have affiliates had their individual trackers removed then? I think Party is very aware of RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they are aware of rakeback... what I mean is, they are not aware of the power of their position relative to us (multitabling sharks). Others have said that they "have us by the balls", which I guess they do, but the point is they don't know that. We are too small a segment.

It's human nature to assume that others know something about you that could hurt you. Just because we're all keenly aware of the power dynamics between us (multitabling sharks) and Party Poker doesn't mean that Party Poker is the slightest bit aware of that same dynamic. What it means is, we should be more proactive in our bargaining and negotiation with Party.

If Party is approached by a large group of high-volume players they are gonna take notice. Every business in every industry has someone "by the balls." You have manufacturing companies that could essentially fire all their employees who are unskilled in any other trade and would be totally screwed. Yet these workers don't just accept whatever peanuts that corporate tosses down to them; they have powerful unions and they negotiate relatively cushy deals.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought ODoyle was setting something up for a new startup site though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct.

I can think of one good reason why Party does NOT want to encourage rakeback.

Rakeback encourages existing players who are shipping 100% of their rake to party to change to accounts that only ship 75% of their rake to party. That would be a 25% hit for Party.

-v

[RunDownHouse]

I think the vast majority of 2+2ers are signed up on Party through one affiliate or another. Its pretty clear from my post that I was asking why Party would care what an affiliate does with the money it receives from Party, not that I was wondering why Party would prefer to retain all the rake as opposed to 65-70% of it.

It'd be interesting to know - not that anyone outside of Party execs will - how much of Party's total player base is signed up through an affiliate.

I answered your question.

They care what an affiliate does with his money because they care about people giving rake back. They are against the idea because it promotes people who already have an account to switch to another account under an affiliate who is giving rake back.

-v

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you could help me clear something up, or fill in something that I'm missing. Why does Party care what an affiliate does with the money they receive? Are they trying to establish some de facto control on a company's spending and budgeting?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that rakeback should be allowed.

It involves too much on Party's end to pick and choose who gets it. What you saw happen this past weekend was Party's way of saying "WE DON'T ALLOW RAKEBACK AND IF YOU GUYS (players and affiliates) ARE GOING TO TAKE MATTERS INTO YOUR OWN HANDS, SO ARE WE". The situation got out of their control with the skins and they were able to regain control by detaching themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what do you consider the tens (hundreds?) of thousands I'm sure you've made off your 140 signups?

I'm sure it was very, very hard work, and that the money barely compensates for all your time and effort.

Please, blow me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have any idea about who my players are or what I've done with them. The only thing you know about is the warped analysis of what you're able to gather in forums such as this.

My 140 players are all local players that we deal with on a day-to-day basis. They aren't 2+2ers, winning players, or power players. They are people that play 10 hours a month on average.

As far as the attention I have given them.....

You only know one way. Look around before you put your foot in your mouth. I personally work with all of my players concerning EVERYTHING. I do deposits. I do cashouts. I have spend countless hours with them on improving their games. I have purchased copies of Poker Tracker for them and have spent more time educating them on the functions of it than you could dream of. I have gone shopping for computers with them and have gone to the houses of "non-tech savys" to set systems up. I have spent an ENORMOUS amount of time on the phone with Party contacts in regards to whatever problems they've come across with their accounts. I see these players every day and my reputation with them is impeccable. They are fully aware of the money I make from their play and know that I have given it back to them ten-fold.

Next time, think very carefully before you open your mouth based on conclusions you've drawn from rakeback affiliates that don't offer what I do.

[SomethingClever]

I was waiting for a response like this.

Do you disagree that there are plenty of affiliates who have gotten rich by doing relatively little?

Do you think they are somehow more deserving than the players that grind 50-100 hours each month?

Comments like these...

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys received from your play on the skins should be considered a privilige and not looked at as a loss.

...

The players get the blunt end of it, but you know what? Players aren't supposed to be getting rakeback to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

...imply that you do.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd wackoff a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

CLASSIC!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Do you disagree that there are plenty of affiliates who have gotten rich by doing relatively little?

[/ QUOTE ]
Rich affiliates? Yes. PLENTY. I'm not one of them.

The guys that started with affiliate programs when they first came out (poker pages, card player, etc.) are making a ridiculous amount. Do they deserve it? Sure, why not.

They are the innovators of an industry. There is a certain reward associated with that in any field. I don't begrudge them at all. The affiliates with the most original Party accounts are those that provide a service to us; a service that is free for us to use and is compensated by sponsor links and advertisements. Give credit where credit is due.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think they are somehow more deserving than the players that grind 50-100 hours each month?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

In retrospect, Party should have carefully screened their affiliates before offering an account to just anyone and they should have had a rakeback plan from day one. Unfortunatly, 5 years ago, they couldn't foresee what was going to happen today. They wove their own tangled web, and I'm sure they are kicking themselves for that decision.

[SomethingClever]

Ok, fair enough.

I was just angered by the tone in your original post, which implied to me that us players should just happily give up on anywhere from $10 to $30k per year because the affiliates deserve it more than we do.

You sound like a good affiliate. On the other hand, the guy who signed up several of my good friends back in the day has made out like a bandit without having to expend a single ounce of effort.

I say, screw him.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

i have a somewhat similar problem with my account, in that i won a cruise on the PPM million (not the WPT entry, just the cruise. they gave out 5 seats in a half million guaranteed for 10th,20th,30th,40th and 50th, and i got 10th.)

so I'm not really sure what is going to happen to that if I decide to make a new account..

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah.
I wouldn't ditch the cruise if I were you...even if it is ONLY the cruise without the tournament.


You can ask what would happen if you 'closed' your current account.
Would you still get to keep the cruise package?
That's probably what i would do IF I was fortunate enough to win my seat AND I decided I wanted to close the account in order to set up a new one.

The other option is to set up an account in your "wife's" name that is for ring-game and rake-back type purposes only.
You would be wise to use a different e-mail and even a different neteller account in order to do this though.
And make sure the name and address are real in case they want some faxed documentation.


I really don't know how safe or risky this option would be though.
It's just a possibility.


I went on the cruise last year and it was terrific...this year is on the Caribbean-gulf side of Mexico...but i expect it to be equally wonderful.

Also wonderful was the fact that my non-poker playing GF probably had an even better time than I did (and I finished in the money in the tournament for an extra $5200).
I was afraid all the poker would be a bit over-the-top for a non-poker passenger.

She knows ZERO about poker.

Mike sexton life-size cut-outs everywhere and then Jesus Ferguson walking right past us and she had no idea who any of these strange looking fellows were.

So it WAS a bit weird to her at times...but overall it didn't effect the enjoyment too much and she would go back again in a heart-beat.