A friendly reminder

[Homer]

These are two consecutive hands I played on UB this morning. My main opponent (MO) is the same person in both hands.

Through these hands you can see the importance of:

1) Not going on tilt and
2) Not forming strong judgements about your opponents too quickly

Hand 1

I'm dealt A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif in the SB. I raise, MO calls.

Flop - 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I bet, MO raises, I reraise, MO caps.

Turn - 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check-call.

River - A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I check-call.

I rivered my opponent, who showed pocket Q's. I think I played the hand well (feel free to dispute that), but my opponent no doubt now thinks I am a maniac and is probably tilting a bit.

Anyhoo, the very next hand...

Hand 2

I'm dealt KKo on the button. One limper, I raise, MO (now in the SB) reraises, limper folds and I call.

Flop - 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

MO bets, I call.

Turn - J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

MO bets, I raise, MO calls.

River - J /forums/images/icons/club.gif

MO thinks and thinks (or maybe his computer is lagging /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif) and checks, I bet, he calls.

MO shows A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I think he was considering betting the river with his bare Ace.

-- Homer

[MRBAA]

Homer, here's a friendly reminder for you: A2s is a very weak hand. You are best off to fold it if anyone has limped. In the hand you posted, I think you were small blind and there were no callers when it came to you, so you raised as a steal. I think that's okay to do sometimes, but I'd also often fold or call. On the flop, you got way out of line with your reraise. Bottom pair and backdoor flush draw are worth a bet, but once you're raised you know you're behind. On the river you hit your five outer -- ni han sir. As for your opponent, it does sound like he was both steaming and unlucky that you caught a legit hand right after this one.

[Homer]

A2s is a very weak hand

When it's folded to me in the SB, it becomes quite strong. I'll raise it from the SB every time.

You are best off to fold it if anyone has limped

It depends on how many limpers. If there are many, then I'll complete and play for the flush. If there is one weak limper, I may complete and hope to catch and Ace on the flop, which will likely be good. If there is a number of limpers somewhere in between, I'll fold.

On the flop, you got way out of line with your reraise. Bottom pair and backdoor flush draw are worth a bet, but once you're raised you know you're behind

I completely disagree. My opponents in these games will often raise the flop with nothing but overcards, as well as with a flush draw and a 2 with a weaker kicker. After it is capped, there is a decent chance I am behind, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if I am ahead against a flush draw capping for a free card. I'm going to call it down every time and expect to win enough to show a profit.

In a live game, I would agree with you. Online, however, the players are much more aggressive and my hand will be best much more often.

As for your opponent, it does sound like he was both steaming and unlucky that you caught a legit hand right after this one

I don't think he was unlucky at all. He played the second hand horribly. He had A5 offsuit and put in 4 big bets with it without making even a pair. Even if he is correct and I am a fish, he still shouldn't be in that hand.

-- Homer

[MRBAA]

A2s is a very weak hand

When it's folded to me in the SB, it becomes quite strong. I'll raise it from the SB every time.

I agree, with no one else in it's a reasonable raising hand.

You are best off to fold it if anyone has limped

It depends on how many limpers. If there are many, then I'll complete and play for the flush. If there is one weak limper, I may complete and hope to catch and Ace on the flop, which will likely be good. If there is a number of limpers somewhere in between, I'll fold.

Of course against four or more limpers (in addition to bb) you can see the flop for one bet. I see your point about raising against one limper, but I think this is the tipping point where you are going to lose money on the play. You can lose a lot when someone else limps a better ace (read any ace). Let alone when you hit your deuce.

On the flop, you got way out of line with your reraise. Bottom pair and backdoor flush draw are worth a bet, but once you're raised you know you're behind

I completely disagree. My opponents in these games will often raise the flop with nothing but overcards, as well as with a flush draw and a 2 with a weaker kicker. After it is capped, there is a decent chance I am behind, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if I am ahead against a flush draw capping for a free card. I'm going to call it down every time and expect to win enough to show a profit.

In a live game, I would agree with you. Online, however, the players are much more aggressive and my hand will be best much more often.

I haven't played online in awhile, but when I played Paradise 2-4 in a full ring game the players weren't that aggressive. Did I miss the fact that this was a 5-handed game -- because there I totally agree withyour reasoning and play. In the 4-8 and 10-20 live game I've played, very few players raise here with just overcards.
As for your opponent, it does sound like he was both steaming and unlucky that you caught a legit hand right after this one

I don't think he was unlucky at all. He played the second hand horribly. He had A5 offsuit and put in 4 big bets with it without making even a pair. Even if he is correct and I am a fish, he still shouldn't be in that hand.

I just meant that he was unlucky to run into such a strong hand immediately after he lost the way he did. After all, you cracked his pocket queens with a similar hand with a timely river hit. All he needed was the same river to return the favor... -- Homer

I agree, with no one else in it's a reasonable raising hand.

[Inthacup]

Homer, here's a friendly reminder for you: A2s is a very weak hand.

When everyone has folded to you in the SB, you should raise A2s every time. I don't think you are making the proper adjustments for hand values once it gets heads up.

Homer, I don't see anything wrong with your play on this hand.

[34TheTruth34]

I don't think he played the first hand horribly. The preflop raise is obvious. Homer is not unhappy if the BB just folds but if not he probably has the best hand. If Homer did overplay his hand at all, it was only by one bet on the flop. The reraise is questionable, but the reasons he gives for the way he played the hand are acceptable (I think anyway). I probably would have check-folded on the turn against most opponents, but there are some that I would have been in there until the river against.

Homer, what would have happened if he 3-bet preflop? And how would you guys play QQ in a spot like that? Personally, I might just call the raise, call the bet on the flop and start the raising on the turn. Interesting hand...

2nd hand was pretty straightforward. You must have really pissed him off for him to be calling like that. At least he thinks you're a fish...

[Robk]

I think you overplayed your hand on the flop. I know it's shorthanded and you don't want to be pushed around in a blind steal situation. But you have to give your opponent credit for a hand. If he has any made hand at all you are pumping with maybe 5 outs. If he has a flush draw, then he has 2 overcards to your pair, and you are still jamming it up as a dog. In addition you will be out of position on the key streets. I would have called the raise, clenched my teeth, and checkcalled my way to the river, unless I improved, in which case I might bet.

[hutz]

I like how you played both hands.

For those who think A2s is not a hand to open raise with when it's folded to you in the SB -- puh-lease! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[MRBAA]

Yes, A-2s is a reasonable hand to raise from the sb with. But as always, "it depends". Sometimes you'll be called by a worse hand that hits a flop when you don't. Sometimes you'll be raised. Sometimes you'll be called by a better hand that then bets into you. In other words, for the times when you win the blinds or win the hand, you are also going to have a fair number of times when you may lose a lot with this hand. This was a case in point -- the blind steal potentially turned into a 5bb loss except that a five-outer hit on the river. I'm very surprised that anyone thinks it's a +EV play against most low limit opponents to three bet the flop with bottom pair and call a turn bet with bottom pair. Unless your opponent is a semi-maniac, you're almost sure to be losing here.

[WiredPair]

I would agree with your "bottom pair" comment if the board had three distinct cards (meaning, not paired). However, with the flop paired, the chances are less likely that someone has caught the board, especially with a flop of 6 6 2. With this flop, for his opponent to catch any of the board, he would need to have one of four cards (two sixes and two 2's). If the flop was something like K J 2, there are now eight cards he could have to catch the flop. I may have done the same thing Homer did by 3-betting and putting his opponent on overcards.

With all of that being said, when Homer is re-raised, I would now expect that I was up against one of the sixes, a pocket pair (which is what it turned out his opponent had) or another 2. When his opponent came back over the top, I probably would have called and then either check called or possibly even folded on the turn to a bet if I didn't improve. Depends on my read of my opponent.

[Inthacup]

Sometimes you'll be called by a worse hand that hits a flop when you don't. Sometimes you'll be raised. Sometimes you'll be called by a better hand that then bets into you.

Oh no! A worse hand may call!!! The thought of a worse hand hitting a 6 outer is just terrifying. Also, I'd be really impressed by ANYONE betting into me when I'm in the SB. It seems that you don't have much experience playing heads up and are uncomfortable with it. That's fine, just realize you're criticizing someone who has a better feel for the game than you do.

[MRBAA]

InThaCup -- I'm not questioning Homer's competence. Your comment about being bet into in SB is asinine. Of course I mean after you check or bet and are raised (as happened here). My point is, this hand can be tough to play and potentially tough to get away from. I don't think in this case Homer played it well -- I think his line of play here would be negative EV over time. I have no idea how I stack up against you or Homer. I am, however, a modestly winning player at limits from $3-6 - $10-20 and my bankroll is entirely money I've won playing. Head up is not my game, but I am certainly very familiar with various stealing and head up scenarios that arise in ring play, and have played the 5-person games on Paradise.

[Homer]

Hi guys. There's no need to question the competency of fellow posters. It only serves to create hostility among us. We should be able to explain to others why (we think) they are wrong without resorting to name calling.

The more I think about this hand, the more I think I may have overplayed it. Against certain opponents I think my play is solid, but is it the best way to play the hand against a random opponent? Perhaps I should have called the flop raise with the intention of betting any card on the turn. Perhaps I should have called the flop cap and check-folded the turn if I didn't improve. Perhaps I should have called the flop cap, led out on the turn and folded to a raise. I think there are a number of ways to play this hand, and the way I played it is certainly open to argument. The only thing I don't think is open to debate is my preflop play.

It is highly possible that my recent venture into shorthanded play has had an influence on my blind play in full games. Perhaps its influence has been too great?

Just some thoughts...

-- Homer

[MRBAA]

Homer, I agree that the raise with A-2s is an okay play head up in SB -- one I'd make sometimes but perhaps not all the time. My point is that this kind of very aggressive play can put you in some tricky situations, and you only have to lose one big pot to negate a lot of stolen blinds.

I was playing 10-20 stud a week or two back against a very aggressive steal raiser on my immediate right. He stole my bring in and antes ($11) three times. But the fourth time he tried it, I had pocket eights, reraised him, hit a third eight fifth, filled on sixth and got paid off by him to the tune of $150 (he went four bets with me on fifth, having paired the solo ace in the hole he started with).

[Inthacup]

It seems that you don't have much experience playing heads up and are uncomfortable with it. That's fine, just realize you're criticizing someone who has a better feel for the game than you do.

This should read more like: From your posts, you seem to be uncomfortable with the aggression needed for proper heads up play. If you aren't raising here with A2s nearly every time, then you are losing money. The feel for the game comment is meant towards heads up play, not holdem in general. When rereading that, if I didn't write it, I would think the same thing you did. I'm not saying Homer is a better holdem player than you or me or anyone else. I'm not saying you are worse than anyone else. I do think your heads up game needs some work because your logic is erroneous and your passive play is going to lose chips.

I usually post messages while doing other stuff on the computer and as a result don't pay much attention to the tone of them. My posts are made with good intentions with an occasional flash of sarcasm. But sarcasm is funny to me. If I offend you with my sarcasm, it's unintentional as it is used for joking purposes.

Your stud example does not hold much relevance to preflop aggression though. You made the majority of your money off an opponent overplaying 1 pair and disregarding your playing style.

[MRBAA]

InThaCup -- I think you still aren't getting my point -- that there is a big downside to this kind of aggression with marginal hands. Yes, most of the time you're winning. Yes aggression is the key to head up play. But depending on you opponent you can be setting yourself up for some tough decisions. The stud example I gave, for instance, is a case where three times my opponent won because I had a bad hand. The fourth time, I had a mediocre hand but because I knew his standards for raising in steal position were probably not high, I also knew there was a good chance I was winning by a lot. Homer's opponent with his queens may have thought the same thing -- hence his smooth call. In the stud example I gave, I in fact started the hand with a huge edge on my opponent and he made the same mistake as Homer in continuing. However in that hand, he got very unlucky as he caught a fairly strong card while I caught a monster. It's an extreme example, but even though he was successful in stealing 75% of the time, he lost an average of 1.5bb for each time he tried the play, because the one time he missed was so costly.

btw, I didn't appreciate the sarcasm. You've got to be a whole lot funnier to rise above just being insulting.

[Inthacup]

I understood what you are saying. Yes, playing marginal hands aggressively is going to cause greater variance and bigger fluctuations. Your decisions are going to be tough sometimes, and that's what I don't think you seem to be comfortable with. But you aren't looking at the whole picture. You seem to be saying that playing this way is only going to lead to tiny wins and huge losses. This isn't true. There's going to be many times where your opponent is going to call you down with mediocre hands because he knows you are not raising with just AK or better. Playing like this invites players to call down with hands like second or bottoms pair because you could easily be firing off with K high.

It's an extreme example, but even though he was successful in stealing 75% of the time, he lost an average of 1.5bb for each time he tried the play, because the one time he missed was so costly.

You're right it is an extreme example. Yes you did get paid off big with your monster, but what about when you have 1 pair or 2 pair and he's playing you this aggressively? If you sit and wait for monster hands, he's going to make you fold marginal hands that you don't feel comfortable playing. Those hands add up and the long run, and unless he's maniacally aggressive, he will more than make up the difference.