$55: HU Hand

I realize that HU is more of an art, but this hand was very interesting.

I've been playing fairly aggressive throughout the tournament, raising and pushing a lot. I was outplaying everyone in this particular tournament and everyone gave a lot of respect for my raises.

This did not stop HU either, as I was raising and pushing a lot against this guy when he had a large chip lead. I took 1200 chips from him without a showdown. So this guy's agitated, I'm sure. But that's about the only read I have, since any read I had for almost any person goes right down the tube when it becomes HU.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t8095)
Hero (t5405)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Button calls t100, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t400</font>, Hero calls t400.

Turn: (t1200) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t800</font>, Hero calls t800.

River: (t2800) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t6695 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t4005 (All-In).

Final Pot: t13500

Any thoughts on how you would play it differently and the logic behind it would be nice.

[the shadow]

Thanks for not posting the results.

Maybe you made a great read and at showdown the villian flashed a busted diamond flush draw or AQ, but this hand doesn't strike me as too interesting. You flop 2d pair and call it down all the way until you're all-in at the river.

By just calling, you never offered villian an opportunity to fold.

Ask yourself -- what hand does villian have? It could be almost anything, with Kx the most likely. Your line never forced villian to define his hand.

These are just my thoughts, but here're a few suggestions:

1. With 2d pair, think about betting the flop with the intention of folding to a raise and check-folding the turn.

2. Fold the turn.

3. Fold the river.

4. If you want to be aggressive, reraise the flop or lead out the turn, rather than just calling.

The Shadow

I didn't post the result because I don't want results fogging the thought processes of others.

My line did force him to define his hand. I was trying to show that from what went on throughout the tournament, but now that you replied I can describe it better.

I'm showing nothing about my hand by just calling. The fact is that I've been betting and raising a whole lot throughout the tournament because there was just a ton of steal opportunities that came to me and I never had to show my hand down unless it was the winning one.

Basically, the key point is that a bet by me in this hand means nothing to him. This means that he could reraise with garbage, and when I just call the reraise I am now defining my own hand without any information on what he has. At that point he can shove it all-in with nothing on the turn too, and the only way to avoid that is by reraising all-in on the flop and I certainly don't want to do that with medium pair.

So for the flop, I didn't bet with 2nd pair because there was a really high chance of getting reraised by him with anything, and I had a decent holding for HU.

Edit: I would like you to explain to me how his most likely holding is Kx, given this new information.

[ QUOTE ]

So for the flop, I didn't bet with 2nd pair because there was a really high chance of getting reraised by him with anything, and I had a decent holding for HU.


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Wouldn't getting reraised by anything be an exceedingly good thing? I can see the line you took being better only if you know he's going to keep betting at you with less than second pair.

It's not good to be reraised with anything because most people does not have a higher percentage of reraising with garbage than with legitimate hands. I'm forced to make a guessing game, and risk half/all of my stack by doing so when I have a legitimate hand myself for HU.

[adanthar]

Against a super aggro player, I would often play it like this the whole way and expect to have the best hand at showdown. Once in a while, I'd CR the turn.

If you lost this - which is unlikely - it's most often to 87 or to a better 9.

I'm the super aggro player. He's not that aggressive, as I have described that I robbed him of quite a few chips.

[ QUOTE ]

So for the flop, I didn't bet with 2nd pair because there was a really high chance of getting reraised by him with anything, and I had a decent holding for HU.

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[ QUOTE ]
It's not good to be reraised with anything because most people do not have a higher percentage of reraising with garbage than with legitimate hands.

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What does "anything" mean? The first suggests bad hands, the second suggests legitimate.

Isn't this where loose-agressive play pays off? You drive your opponent to disbelief that you have anything good and they go over the top of you with a marginal holding. If he had a great hand, I think he flat calls a flop bet.

I think just calling helps your opponent draw out on your middle pair on the turn and river more often than it helps you win more chips.

Your overly agressive play HU will have more of an effect on your table image than the good hands you've had to show down previously.

I bet the flop here.

Anything means just that, anything. If I get raised after a bet, I have to shove my chips in for my bet to be profitable. I have no choice of just calling his raise since he could shove all-in with anything on the turn, and if a scare card comes on the turn, then now I probably have to lean towards a fold. That's why I'm saying that it becomes a guessing game as to whether or not he has a legitimate hand.

He also wouldn't cold call here with a great hand. I've been pushing a lot, he'd be hoping for me to shove all my chips in after his raise and he would not want me to draw out on him.

[Skip Brutale]

I might consider just pushing all-in preflop in order to keep intimidating him and letting him know he cant call your blind. The rest of the hand I would deffinately just call all the way.

I guess it is hard to find this as interesting now that I look at it from a third-person perspective. It's just the type of read and play throughout the hand in which I feel that I played perfectly.

Preflop: I flat call with 10-9o. It's a decent hand for HU, and a raise would only make the pot bigger since he will call with anything.

Flop: I check, sensing that if I bet there's a very high chance of him raising with anything (which means garbage or legitimate), and if I just call that raise then I'm giving away the strength of my own hand without getting any information about him. At that point he can go all-in on the turn too, so now I have to guess if I'm beating him with 2nd pair. Not a situation I want to be in. I will call a bet on the flop, but I'm not going to let him bet me out of the pot unless he really has something.

Turn: I check again for nearly the same reason, except now it's more about pot size control. If he doesn't have anything, he has to risk a large portion of his stack to win so little. He bets the turn, and I call. He may have something, he may not. But I have to pay him off at least this much with 2nd pair HU.

River: At this point, I can get a lot of information on what he has from what he does here. Looking back at the hand, I never bet and I never raised. He had to be afraid of me not betting since I am superaggressive, but that all changed when I checked the river. I'm looking very weak right now, just calling as if to say "I want to check this through". On the other hand, I may also just be calling because I have a king and a weak kicker, or that I have a fairly weak hand and just calling, hoping to check it down.

So why in the world would anyone shove it all-in here with a legitimate hand? My most likely holding is a fairly weak hand, followed by a king with a weak kicker. I've been sending the message clear as day, "I want to check it down". If he didn't have a king, he'd have to be pretty afraid of me wanting to check/call down a king with weak kicker. If he did have a strong king, he would want to maximize my chances of calling by betting a reasonable amount because my most likely holding is not a king. There was also an off-chance that I was trying to be really tricky here with a monster, and if he's the type of player that's afraid of that then he'd just bet a modest amount and call an all-in from me. Now I had to call, there was absolutely no way I could be beat here.

Results: He shows J5o. I win the pot.

This hand is interesting to me because I don't get to play superaggressive very often (usually controlled aggression, not maniac like this game). It showed that when nobody respects your bets, then checking or calling gives much more information than betting ever will.

[GtrHtr]

Why not bet the flop with a pot sized bet or check raise the turn? Barring a solid read, and you seem to have a decent one on villain, why are you surrendering aggression to him in this hand?

On a side note, one of the things I learned in my HU Dilemma post was to keep an eye on the blinds. In this case, you have a lot of poker left if you chose too.

[the shadow]

I still don't like your line, but good post.

I like villian's line even less than yours. When he was dealt J5o, I doubt that he thought to himself, I'm going to limp in, bet the flop, bet the turn, and push the river, even if the board totally misses my hand. He needed a plan for this hand, which he bet impromptu on each street and which got away from him. Failure to plan is planning to fail.

If he wanted to earn the hand, maybe he should have raised pre-flop with the intention of betting the flop if checked to or pushing if you opened the betting.

The Shadow

Shadow, what line would you take? You can't really plan much on HU. The flop will drastically change your plans. I sure as hell didn't plan on calling an all-in on the river with middle pair when I was trying to avoid it throughout the hand.

Gtr, as I said, if I bet the flop then there was a very high chance of being raised by anything from crap to legitimate hands. There's also a key reason for letting him be the aggressor on this hand, and that is pot size control. You said it nicely when pointing out that I can play a lot more even if I let this hand go. If I bet the flop, I was either going to win it there or I was committed to it. There was no turning back. I'd probably be making a horrible mistake to fold to a raise, and in that sense I'm letting him be the aggressor if I fold here. So if I bet the flop, there's a high chance that I'm actually giving him a very profitable opportunity to be the aggressor by putting me to a test when I only have medium pair.

Imagine what would happen if I bet the flop here for, say, 300 chips. The pot is now 700. He can very easily raise 600 with anything because he knows by now that my bets deserve no respect. Now if I just call here, he can do the same thing on the turn because I'm showing weakness. So if I just call, the pot is now 1900. That's a big pot to be in with only medium pair. If I don't bet the turn here for about a 1000, then he can raise again for about 1000 chips and now I have to make a decision for all my chips to win a pot of 2900. If I do bet the turn here, then I'm doing so with medium pair and he can still raise me again, in which case I'd probably have to fold. So by just betting the flop, the pot can become large enough to where I have to make a decision for all my chips with medium pair. This is a very good situation for the other guy because he can put this kind of pressure on me while risking only 1/3rd as much, because at any given point in the hand I'm probably making a mistake by calling his raise, so I have to pop in a reraise. The best spot to do this is on the flop, but then he very well have me beaten already, or beat me on the turn or river. I saw no point in getting myself stuck in this situation when I could just check/call him to the end.

[the shadow]

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Shadow, what line would you take? You can't really plan much on HU. The flop will drastically change your plans. I sure as hell didn't plan on calling an all-in on the river with middle pair when I was trying to avoid it throughout the hand.

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I'd take your line with 2-pair and better, unless a draw threatened my hand.

With 2d pair, I'd force a decision early. Bet the flop, check-raise the flop, or lead out the turn.

The Shadow

That seems very geared towards a full ring table. In HU, 2nd pair in an uncoordinated board is a nice but not powerful hand. Added to that is the fact that a raise was probably going to happen with anything, and I would have to reraise to force a decision early. So I'd have to commit myself to the pot with 2nd pair? That just doesn't seem right.