Heads Up SNGs-Where the real consistent $ is

[Indiana]

Finally I have found a system that is bringing in a more consistent flow of $ for me. I've always made lots of $ in poker but it has been rather inconsistent. Some days break even, others hit a MTT or a run of SNGs for a nice payday. Lately, I've been playing the 20s and 50s Heads Up matches on stars and I seem to be doing well. I've found that I can parlay a $20 or $50 Heads up match with 2 $30 SNGs (9 players) and the 9 player games are practically freerolls from the Heads Up profits. Has anyone else tried this? Also, could we turn this thread into a strategy discussion for Heads Up? Any ideas on what a reasonable ROI or ITM is?

One piece of advice I have for Heads up players is to play conservatively off the button and more aggressively on the button. Position is everything.

Look forward to discussion,

Indy

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
Any ideas on what a reasonable ROI or ITM is?


[/ QUOTE ]

60% seems to be the forum consensus for a good but achievable HU win percentage.


[ QUOTE ]
One piece of advice I have for Heads up players is to play conservatively off the button and more aggressively on the button. Position is everything.


[/ QUOTE ]

Every strategy has a counter-strategy.

The Shadow

[Indiana]

When I am in my "zone" I seem to achieve more than 60% win rate on these. Perhaps its just in my head but 70% may be achievable. Any experiences to prove that?

Indy

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
When I am in my "zone" I seem to achieve more than 60% win rate on these.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to win more when I'm winning, too. Unfortunately, you have to count the SNGs you play when things aren't going quite so swimmingly.

Indy, if you'd like to run a little experiment for the good of science and this forum (and to help you get a better feel for what to expect), we can play a series of small buy-in HU SNGs against each other and see what happens. We can play 2 at a time and finish 50 matches in a few hours over a couple of days.

We wouldn't be trying to achieve any kind of statistical significance or anything, but it may be interesting to see how well a 70% winner at the $50's (you) would do against a 63% winner at the $50's (me).

Sidebets on the proposition would be welcome, of course.

Irieguy

I suppose it depends on how bad your opponents are (and "what kind of bad" more importantly), but I've never heard any pro claiming that big of an edge heads-up.

[beeyjay]

wait so do i get points on the dog here? cuz that would be butter

[Indiana]

Irie,

I didnt say I was 70% over the long run. Just in my "zone" and I'll admit that the "zone" comes when i've been playing for a few hours and not when I first start up. I would love to play you in some heads up matches to improve my game but I doubt that two regular 2+2ers are going to achieve a great EV from playing each other.

Indy

[Indiana]

Irie et al,

Are there any good posts on Heads Up matches? I've searched this site but didnt find anything interesting. Could we start a discussion on strategies or learnings?

Indy

[the shadow]

There are some great HU posts. Someday, when I find the time, I'll finish up my own summary of the HU threads I've read. In the meantime, with apologies to the many excellent posters whom I may inadvertantly miss, start by searching for posts on HU play by apathy, blackaces, blarg, curtains, dali, dana33, dead$$$walking, dethgrind, dfscott, djh, drphysic, durron, eastbay, freudian, ilya, irchans, irie, karak, karlson, lacky, lori, pvs, scuba chuck, tminus, valenzuela, and william.

The Shadow

[The Yugoslavian]

These links will help less for HU STTs. Only recently did I become interested in HU STTs and I have to admit I haven't done an extensive search for applicable material. I'm not sure much exists or should exist. It's a very funky game and very hard to go over hands b/c so much if it is completely contextual.

Yugoslav

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
These links will help less for HU STTs. Only recently did I become interested in HU STTs and I have to admit I haven't done an extensive search for applicable material. I'm not sure much exists or should exist. It's a very funky game and very hard to go over hands b/c so much if it is completely contextual.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Play shorthanded NL cash and work your way down to heads-up. As is my opinion on any form of poker, it is best to figure things out yourself (outside of the fundumentals of course). Indiana's advice is very applicable though (Green Plastic says pretty much the same thing on the free video on cardrunners.com).

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
Irie,

I didnt say I was 70% over the long run. Just in my "zone" and I'll admit that the "zone" comes when i've been playing for a few hours and not when I first start up. I would love to play you in some heads up matches to improve my game but I doubt that two regular 2+2ers are going to achieve a great EV from playing each other.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I would travel any distance to play Irieguy in any game he can name for any amount he can count....That goes double for his nitwit partner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: If I could say a prayer that would result in a HU match against Yugo I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Irie,

I didnt say I was 70% over the long run. Just in my "zone" and I'll admit that the "zone" comes when i've been playing for a few hours and not when I first start up. I would love to play you in some heads up matches to improve my game but I doubt that two regular 2+2ers are going to achieve a great EV from playing each other.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I would travel any distance to play Irieguy in any game he can name for any amount he can count....That goes double for his nitwit partner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: If I could say a prayer that would result in a HU match against Yugo I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what old man? Your prayer just got answered.

Name time, place, buyin and I'll be there pwning you like a $2 hooker from Thailand, /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

Yugoslav

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Irie,

I didnt say I was 70% over the long run. Just in my "zone" and I'll admit that the "zone" comes when i've been playing for a few hours and not when I first start up. I would love to play you in some heads up matches to improve my game but I doubt that two regular 2+2ers are going to achieve a great EV from playing each other.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I would travel any distance to play Irieguy in any game he can name for any amount he can count....That goes double for his nitwit partner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: If I could say a prayer that would result in a HU match against Yugo I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what old man? Your prayer just got answered.

Name time, place, buyin and I'll be there pwning you like a $2 hooker from Thailand, /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

time = now
place = pokerstars
buyin = $50

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church

[/ QUOTE ]

Satinism (http://www.formanet.co.yu/slike/fantasy/glory_swa_satin_cherub.jpg)?

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church

[/ QUOTE ]

Satinism (http://www.formanet.co.yu/slike/fantasy/glory_swa_satin_cherub.jpg)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I worship satin & I'm pretty high on chiffon too /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Irie,

I didnt say I was 70% over the long run. Just in my "zone" and I'll admit that the "zone" comes when i've been playing for a few hours and not when I first start up. I would love to play you in some heads up matches to improve my game but I doubt that two regular 2+2ers are going to achieve a great EV from playing each other.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I would travel any distance to play Irieguy in any game he can name for any amount he can count....That goes double for his nitwit partner /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: If I could say a prayer that would result in a HU match against Yugo I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what old man? Your prayer just got answered.

Name time, place, buyin and I'll be there pwning you like a $2 hooker from Thailand, /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

time = now
place = pokerstars
buyin = $50

[/ QUOTE ]

Still at work pwning.

So yeah, basically you're going to bed in like 15 minutes or whatever so I doubt this will happen tonight.

Yugoslav

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
So yeah, basically you're going to bed in like 15 minutes or whatever so I doubt this will happen tonight.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugospeak for "I'm a whining little pansy than can't tie Stanzee's shoelaces"

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So yeah, basically you're going to bed in like 15 minutes or whatever so I doubt this will happen tonight.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugospeak for "I'm a whining little pansy than can't tie Stanzee's shoelaces"

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is the one not online right now when I'm ready to go?!

You can't even stay awake long enough to tie Stanzee's shoelaces, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Yugoslav

[Ogre]

accidently registering for Limit Stud HU H/L tournys kinda hurt my win % /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
accidently registering for Limit Stud HU H/L tournys kinda hurt my win % /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

those are the nuts.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would renounce Satinism and return to the Church

[/ QUOTE ]

Satinism (http://www.formanet.co.yu/slike/fantasy/glory_swa_satin_cherub.jpg)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I worship satin & I'm pretty high on chiffon too /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Too funny!

[pokerdirty]

i know this thread has been hijacked, and Indy has been [censored] , but what IS a good HU strategy in these matches. See as many flops as possible? Tight early, pushbot later? I've tried these out in the past couple of days and I'm still not sure which way plays best. Any help would be appreciated.

PS. i'm playing PR 11s
1500 starting stacks
10 hands/level
BB = 20,30,50,100, 150, 200, 300, etc

[Mr_J]

Forget that, thought you meant PS HU structure.

[valenzuela]

Im 2-4 on the $50s, I have like a $750 br, I use the "do whatever u want with ur money until u have $650 left " system.
I rather waste my money on small buy-in multis..though, so no more HU for me.

Im still learning HUs though Im not used to playing with such deep stacks, I try to be agressive preflop. Im also really agressive with draws and at least one overcard.
I feel Ive been outplayed once, while I outplayed once as well.( i crahsed the guy...he was too passive so I think he doesnt count)

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
Every strategy has a counter-strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that isn't strictly true. Heads-up holdem being a zero-sum game, there exists a set of strategies with which it is impossible to lose over the long term.

If you ever work out the complete strategy, please PM me.

[FieryJustice]

While I was on my bad run of sngs, I decided to jump to the hu games for a while and see how they went. I didnt play a lot, but here is what happened...

I started off with $1000 in my stars account from rakeback. I played $200 hu games and went 9-6, so I decided to jump to the $500 ones. There, I was 15-9, so wtf...why not try the $1000 games. I ended up going 1705, but at one point I was 15-5. This is when the trouble happened. I got the bright idea to play Jerrry in the $5000 hu games. While he is good, he does overplay his hands, so I figured I could catch him on this. Well, I went 2-3 against time, with 2 of the losses comming from dumb beats where i had something like 76 on a A58 board and runner runnering 66, losing to a 6 with a higher kicker. [censored] like that happened 2 times. I guess "thats poker." I hate that saying. Well, after the massacre at the $5000 games, I think my game has somehow changed and I did much worse in the 1000 games. So, I am back 10 tabling 109 sngs, working up the small amount party would let me deposit using igmpay.

So...what have i learned? Dont play with a small bankroll!!! Losing $5000 when you only have $60000 total sucks.

[Mr_J]

"Losing $5000 when you only have $60000 total sucks. "

Ah, these sorts of swings happened daily when I was sportsbetting. I wish I was sportsbetting.

"I started off with $1000 in my stars account from rakeback"

You mean you deposited $1k of RB into stars??

"I played 4 $200 hu games and went 9-6"

??? You mean you 4tabled?? Or you played 15 $200 HU??

Your experience doesn't sound bad at all. Sounds like you can either make money up there and just don't have the roll (which would give me confidence), or you just ran hot or played above your level.

[FieryJustice]

As for the $1000, my rakeback guy deposited 1000 of my rakeback into stars. I dont know how the 4 got in front of the $200...I single tabled all of these. The way I was looking at it, if you can win 60% of your games at the $1000 level and play 10 a day, you will quickly be rich, making a nice $2000/day. However, this isnt taking into account the "normal" swings. I just dont know what these swings look like. I really went into it all pretty blind. I am posative the $1000 games are beatable. Actually, I am pretty sure the 5000 games are beatable too...just be prepared for some sick swings. I am also pretty sure I was running pretty hot when i was doing well in the 1000 games. I only lost to a 2 outer one time, but when it all started falling apart, I lost to a ton of 3 and 2 outers. I guess it is bound to happen eventually.

[Mr_J]

"I just dont know what these swings look like"

Much smaller than sngs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"The way I was looking at it, if you can win 60% of your games at the $1000 level and play 10 a day you will quickly be rich"

I'd think 60% is a huge number at these stakes. These guys are probally mainly good players, with the regular wealthy fishies.

I still need to get the hang of these things /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[AA suited]

"winning 60% of $1000 HU sngs"

That's 100% profit, right?

And how long does it take (on avg) to play a HU sng on stars?

[kitaristi0]

Like someone mentioned, the key to these is position. With even stacks I'll only call raises OOP with 22+, AQ+. All the money is made when playing in position.

Time is anything between 1 hand - 1.5 hours.





I'm not sure if this constitutes spamming or whether advertising is allowed here or not, but if you really want to improve your HU SNG skills, subscribe to Cardrunners. Green Plastic is undoubtedly one of the best HU players in the world, and he'll teach you all you need to know about HU SNGs at the site. (On a sidenote, if this does come off as spam, please go ahead and delete this post).

[Jason Strasser]

When can I get some more action from you /images/graemlins/laugh.gif?

[MegaBet]

I've known this for a while. I'm killing these HU games...the next big thing. No one I have played seems to have a clue how to play. I have already won the 2+2 HU match, plus a few other multi-person HU tournaments. It's free money for me! Avoid me at all costs! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ClaytonN]

Well I am 8-3 after 11 (10+0.5's). I'm gonna play 100 I think and see how that goes.

Low stakes (5.50) I find 70% to be sustainable over 500 SnGs. Not sure if that's a good sample size for these. Definitely sure that he's not playing optimally.