Help Me Understand

I must admit that my knowledge of the "theist" view on world events is very lacking, so please help me out here.

It was reported on CNN that a prominant "theist" described hurricane Katrina as god punishing the gulf coast for some reason I can't remember. Is this a mainstream "theist" view, or is that guy a wacko even by "theist" standards?

I'm watching coverage of the earthquake in Pakistan. To me it seems like an earthquake is caused by various stresses acting on particular techtonic plates. What is the "theist" view of this? Did god get the ball rolling, but in general events such as this can be random, or did every single person that died that day die because it was god's will to have an earthquake occur at that precise moment in that precise location?

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but I really don't know.

[Bigdaddydvo]

My 2 cents as a practicing Catholic:

Natural Disasters are a logical consequence of the Earth's intrinsic physical properties, e.g. pressure builds along continental plates, and as they shift to release the pressure, earthquakes happen.

Most mainstream believers understand God taking a "hands off" approach in regards to the physical properties of the world He created. If a hurricane, earthquake, tsumani, etc happens, it's a consequence of these physical properties and not from God trying to use those resulting disasters as a tool "teach us a lesson."

The people who believe these disasters are a punishment of some sort are a very small minorty IMO.

Thanks for the reply.

So you believe that god is hands off when it comes to the physical properties of the world. Fine.

What about the human beings inhabitting the planet? Do you as a practising catholic believe that it's god's will what happens to you on a daily basis, who you meet, when you die, etc. If so, that seems like a contradiction to me. How can god control what fate people on earth meet without also controlling the physical properties of the earth?

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
My 2 cents as a practicing Catholic:

Natural Disasters are a logical consequence of the Earth's intrinsic physical properties, e.g. pressure builds along continental plates, and as they shift to release the pressure, earthquakes happen.

Most mainstream believers understand God taking a "hands off" approach in regards to the physical properties of the world He created. If a hurricane, earthquake, tsumani, etc happens, it's a consequence of these physical properties and not from God trying to use those resulting disasters as a tool "teach us a lesson."

The people who believe these disasters are a punishment of some sort are a very small minorty IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do all, many, most, a lot (take your pick) Catholic services/believers include prayers of intercession if mainstream Catholics believe God will not intercede?

Where do you believe your God draws a line or are you still in the process of scientific rational investigation into the question?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply.

So you believe that god is hands off when it comes to the physical properties of the world. Fine.

What about the human beings inhabitting the planet? Do you as a practising catholic believe that it's god's will what happens to you on a daily basis, who you meet, when you die, etc. If so, that seems like a contradiction to me. How can god control what fate people on earth meet without also controlling the physical properties of the earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always liked the "clockmaker" analogy, where God makes minor adjustments to what is happening while keeping a generally hands off approach. It's more "influence" than direct impact.

Can God adjust wind currents to form a hurricane if he wants? Sure, he can, but that doesn't make it likely.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why do all, many, most, a lot (take your pick) Catholic services/believers include prayers of intercession if mainstream Catholics believe God will not intercede?

Where do you believe your God draws a line or are you still in the process of scientific rational investigation into the question?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a difference between "intercession" (which I explained more as "influence" above) as opposed to the idea of God controlling EVERYTHING. This idea is prevalent in many Islamic nations. Where I watched it first hand was with the Bedoin tribes in Kuwait going down a livefire range while the range was "hot" attempting to retrieve scrap metal. If someone gets shot, it's "In Sh'Allah" (sp) or the will of Allah. To them, it was God's will to get shot, all the while never occuring to them that they chose to be in a situation where getting shot was more likely than not.

Your second question about level of intercession is not something that can be known or quantified, and is regarded by the Church as a mystery.

[KeysrSoze]

Most people like to feel special, and many will attribute God as responsible for saving their life in a flood or some such event ("I'm so great and important God intervened just for me!", blah blah bla I'm sure you've seen the news before), or testing them with trials and tribulations. Its just human nature. Then theres those who see Gods hand in every significant event a half a continent away. These guys are stuck in the past, where spirits, demons, witches and gods were around every corner and hiding under every rock. Both are "theists" but one is a little different from the other.

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply.

So you believe that god is hands off when it comes to the physical properties of the world. Fine.

What about the human beings inhabitting the planet? Do you as a practising catholic believe that it's god's will what happens to you on a daily basis, who you meet, when you die, etc. If so, that seems like a contradiction to me. How can god control what fate people on earth meet without also controlling the physical properties of the earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always liked the "clockmaker" analogy, where God makes minor adjustments to what is happening while keeping a generally hands off approach. It's more "influence" than direct impact.

Can God adjust wind currents to form a hurricane if he wants? Sure, he can, but that doesn't make it likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a scary world you live in! I drop a ball and it falls. you drop a ball and wonder, will it fall or will God step in and make it not fall go up instead! F..ing madness.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply.

So you believe that god is hands off when it comes to the physical properties of the world. Fine.

What about the human beings inhabitting the planet? Do you as a practising catholic believe that it's god's will what happens to you on a daily basis, who you meet, when you die, etc. If so, that seems like a contradiction to me. How can god control what fate people on earth meet without also controlling the physical properties of the earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always liked the "clockmaker" analogy, where God makes minor adjustments to what is happening while keeping a generally hands off approach. It's more "influence" than direct impact.

Can God adjust wind currents to form a hurricane if he wants? Sure, he can, but that doesn't make it likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a scary world you live in! I drop a ball and it falls. you drop a ball and wonder, will it fall or will God step in and make it not fall go up instead! F..ing madness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rest assured that my defense of something you deem irrational (my faith) does not translate to defending something over 99% of people would consider irrational (worrying about a ball falling upwards).

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
What a scary world you live in! I drop a ball and it falls. you drop a ball and wonder, will it fall or will God step in and make it not fall go up instead! F..ing madness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so the ball is not one we (ND) drop in or near the end zone this weekend against USC.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
Then theres those who see Gods hand in every significant event a half a continent away

[/ QUOTE ]

I only see god's hand in Tupalo, Missouri.

[JackWhite]

[ QUOTE ]
It was reported on CNN that a prominant "theist" described hurricane Katrina as god punishing the gulf coast for some reason I can't remember. Is this a mainstream "theist" view, or is that guy a wacko even by "theist" standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Joseph Stalin was an atheist who killed millions of people. Does this represent all atheists? Or was he just one of those wacko atheists?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What a scary world you live in! I drop a ball and it falls. you drop a ball and wonder, will it fall or will God step in and make it not fall go up instead! F..ing madness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so the ball is not one we (ND) drop in or near the end zone this weekend against USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen. Go Irish!

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> Most mainstream believers understand God taking a "hands off" approach in regards to the physical properties of the world He created. If a hurricane, earthquake, tsumani, etc happens, it's a consequence of these physical properties and not from God trying to use those resulting disasters as a tool "teach us a lesson." </font>

Ironic, since it was no doubt disasters such as these, that started the whole concept of Gods and religions in the first place.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I must admit that my knowledge of the "theist" view on world events is very lacking, so please help me out here.

It was reported on CNN that a prominant "theist" described hurricane Katrina as god punishing the gulf coast for some reason I can't remember. Is this a mainstream "theist" view, or is that guy a wacko even by "theist" standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Theist is far too wide a term spanning far too many beliefs for one to even set a standard. Some people believe God intervenes because he is angry a la Old Testament style, others believe it is a lead up to the end times.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

I'm watching coverage of the earthquake in Pakistan. To me it seems like an earthquake is caused by various stresses acting on particular techtonic plates. What is the "theist" view of this? Did god get the ball rolling, but in general events such as this can be random, or did every single person that died that day die because it was god's will to have an earthquake occur at that precise moment in that precise location?

[/ QUOTE ]

Disreagrding the "general theist perspective" one doesn't know if God plays dice with disasters or plans a precise target.

The most logical theistic view IMHO is one that talks about an increase in disasters leading up to the end of the world. (forget the hollywood hype)

Man has been so destructive to planet Earth, especially since industrialization, that some people have argued that man is "alien" to Earth because it's the only creature on the planet that doesn't seem to fit with the balance of life. (Not sure I agree with this view per se but it does provoke some thought especially since we are the only species capable of eliminating another)

It also seems logical that as the Earth came into being to assume it will come to an end. (just as Man came into being it is logical man will come to an end)

I dismiss the idea of God causing Katrina and the Pakistani Earthquake because of homosexuality or something else he doesn't like, but a theistic view from Christianity regarding the last days does paint a picture of a world breaking down, with earthquakes and many animals and plants dying.

I think if you take a look at what humans have done to this planet through exploitation, it does seem to give weight to the Christian view of things and seems logical considering man willingly rapes the planet and its people for cold hard cash that one day it would come back to bite them in the ass. (every action = reaction)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but I really don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no dumb questions IMHO.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Most mainstream believers understand God taking a "hands off" approach in regards to the physical properties of the world He created. If a hurricane, earthquake, tsumani, etc happens, it's a consequence of these physical properties and not from God trying to use those resulting disasters as a tool "teach us a lesson." </font>

Ironic, since it was no doubt disasters such as these, that started the whole concept of Gods and religions in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real answer to where the idea of God came from is Him revealing himself over several millenia to humanity through the prophets of the Old Testament, culminating with John the Baptist and finally with His Son Jesus.

[David Sklansky]

"Most mainstream believers understand God taking a "hands off" approach in regards to the physical properties of the world He created. If a hurricane, earthquake, tsumani, etc happens, it's a consequence of these physical properties and not from God trying to use those resulting disasters as a tool "teach us a lesson."

"Ironic, since it was no doubt disasters such as these, that started the whole concept of Gods and religions in the first place."

Oh baby have YOU come a long way.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> The real answer to where the idea of God came from is Him revealing himself over several millenia to humanity through the prophets of the Old Testament, culminating with John the Baptist and finally with His Son Jesus. </font>

Now how can anyone argue with that?

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you take a look at what humans have done to this planet through exploitation, it does seem to give weight to the Christian view of things and seems logical considering man willingly rapes the planet and its people for cold hard cash that one day it would come back to bite them in the ass. (every action = reaction)

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's ironic, considering godless liberals like me work to minimize exploitation while people in office that 'talk to god' seem to not give two dungs about the environment.