Do you call preflop?

[Woodsie]

About 45 players left in PS $10 tourney, you are in the BB (with $55,000). The chip leader (with $96,000), who has been aggressive, minraises from middle position and it is folded around to you. Binds are $2000/$4000 $200 ante.

You have KTo. There is currently $15,600 in the pot and it will cost you $4,000 to play. Do you call getting almost 4-1 on your money?

These are the type of situations that I need advice on. Is 4-1 good enought call from the BB? KTo is week out of position.

Thanks.

[mayesie]

The pot-odds alone are enough to make this is an easy call, IMO (regardless of hand-strength or position). As soon as the blinds increase, you're going to be approaching desperate territory. Take the 4-1 odds & hope to hit the flop.

HOH Vol 2 discusses this very topic in detail

I need to get me a copy of that...Nudge cough

[Woodsie]

Ok good thanks. I did call (with KsTc) and the flop came 4c6cKd, so I did hit top pair, weak kicker and backdoor weak flush draw.

What do you do next? Since chipleader was aggressive, I checked. He bet out 8k into a 19k pot and i raised to 16k. He immediately went all in. I have 35k left if I fold.

Would it have been better for me to bet the flop instead of checkraise?

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
(regardless of hand-strength or position).

[/ QUOTE ]


nooo... the only reason this could be a call, is because he has some value for top pair... like, he doesn't have to hit 2 pair or better. If his stack were deeper it'd be a pretty easy call beecause he can afford to bet/CR when he gets a pair and fold when he's raised (not always, but has the option)..
but w/ his stack now he his bet gets raised he's likely going to end up getting all in with it, and i dont think that's going to turn out well.

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basically, i dont think this is an 'any two' situation by any means, but two broadway, semi-connectors, should make this marginally profitable.

[Woodsie]

Ah I am glad you responded. It pretty much turned out exactly how you described.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3632961&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

[Woodsie]

bump

[Exitonly]

bleh, i want to say bet out 10k and fold to a push, but you said he's been aggressive so he could be pushing you around..

well, i'm pretty sure i'm betting out, the question is wether or not to call his push, cause at that point you'l be getting like 2:1.

vs his non-bluffing range (i guessed QQ+,AKs,KTs+,AKo,KJo+) you're a little unnder 30%.. so he'd have to be bluffing like 10%++ of the time to be profitable (since even when he's bluffing he wont be drawing dead).. so i guess that depends on your read, but soundns like he could be.


I think the flop is a crappy situation, and is why i try and be selective playing hands out of the blinds w/o a big stack.

[mayesie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(regardless of hand-strength or position).

[/ QUOTE ]


nooo... the only reason this could be a call, is because he has some value for top pair... like, he doesn't have to hit 2 pair or better. If his stack were deeper it'd be a pretty easy call beecause he can afford to bet/CR when he gets a pair and fold when he's raised (not always, but has the option)..
but w/ his stack now he his bet gets raised he's likely going to end up getting all in with it, and i dont think that's going to turn out well.

--

basically, i dont think this is an 'any two' situation by any means, but two broadway, semi-connectors, should make this marginally profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Granted, I wouldn't make the call w/ Q4o & hope to make something happen here (perhaps my previous statement was too general). KTo, on the other hand, is plenty good enough to call getting 4-1. This hand is also capable of catching a good straight draw, which can setup a potential semi-bluff on the flop (which I also believe to be profitable).

[mayesie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok good thanks. I did call (with KsTc) and the flop came 4c6cKd, so I did hit top pair, weak kicker and backdoor weak flush draw.

What do you do next? Since chipleader was aggressive, I checked. He bet out 8k into a 19k pot and i raised to 16k. He immediately went all in. I have 35k left if I fold.

Would it have been better for me to bet the flop instead of checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, I think a probe bet is the correct play here. Bet 10K or so on the flop. If he pushes, the pot will be around 80K, costing your remaining 41K or so to call. At that point, you'll need to make a decision. Although this isn't the easiest call to make, I probably make it given the approx. 2-1 pot-odds & the aggressive nature of the bigstack.

You can't just sit back & wait for a premium hand to make a move. As soon as the blinds increase, you're going to be in real trouble. Make your move now, & take a shot at doubling up.

[Woodsie]

[ QUOTE ]
bleh, i want to say bet out 10k and fold to a push, but you said he's been aggressive so he could be pushing you around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya that is why I went for the CR. Nevertheless, when he went allin after my CR, I think I should have folded.

I would have went from 55k to 35K. My M would have been around 9 at the current level and just above 3 once blinds went to 3,000/6,000, so I still would have had time to get some cards.

[mayesie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bleh, i want to say bet out 10k and fold to a push, but you said he's been aggressive so he could be pushing you around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya that is why I went for the CR. Nevertheless, when he went allin after my CR, I think I should have folded.

I would have went from 55k to 35K. My M would have been around 9 at the current level and just above 3 once blinds went to 3,000/6,000, so I still would have had time to get some cards.

[/ QUOTE ]


If the blinds are 2k/4k w/ 200 antes, it costs about 8k to play each round. This leaves you w/ a M of just over 7 w/ a stack of 55k. As soon as the blinds increase, your M drops down to about 5. At this point, you'll need to make a move very soon (perhaps w/ a worse hand than KTo).

This is assuming your table is at 9-10 players.

[Woodsie]

Aight thx.

Btw, he had AA and I called and got knocked out.

[rockythecat99]

A check raise is fine here. YOu have an aggro who can be raising with any two and you hit top pair. 9 out of 10 times he folds to this bet. So he had AA that doesn't change the fact that your check raise was fine given your read and the situation.

[Woodsie]

ya i am honestly not concerned about me losing. that is poker.

my main concern was if i should have been in the hand in the first place (i.e., prelop call), then if i should have CR the agro player or bet into him.

right ,to answer your question that is deffo a call.
the blinds are 2000/4000 at the moment but the next level they would be 4000/8000.31K gives you less than 3 rotates and its very unlikely you gonna find your self in better situation than this.
you have top pair here and a fantastic chance to double up+ kicker is not as weak as you think esp you said the bettor is aggresive + your hand can still improve,3 tens out there plus two other K's not to mention your backdoor possibilities ,all that make this an easy call.
i would not check the flop though in this situation.what if he checked after you and the turn was an A ?if you pushed then and he put you all in then it would be different situation.
on the flop the pot is bigg enough for you to be happy to take it down there and then.
i hope this helps.

[mayesie]

[ QUOTE ]
ya i am honestly not concerned about me losing. that is poker.

my main concern was if i should have been in the hand in the first place (i.e., prelop call), then if i should have CR the agro player or bet into him.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's lucky you didn't give him a good ass-cracking, given his lame pre-flop raise. Was the table generally passive enough to warrant such a small raise before the flop?

[Woodsie]

thanks. the more i think about it, the more i think betting out is in fact the play here. if he does check behind, not only will an ace be a scary card for me but any club would to.

thanks for everyone that responded.

[Woodsie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ya i am honestly not concerned about me losing. that is poker.

my main concern was if i should have been in the hand in the first place (i.e., prelop call), then if i should have CR the agro player or bet into him.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's lucky you didn't give him a good ass-cracking, given his lame pre-flop raise. Was the table generally passive enough to warrant such a small raise before the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

well it was that time during the tournament when the short stacks were doing the first in vigorous, so i would not say it was passive, but in once sense most were not tangling with the big stack unless they had a good hand. hence, my question about calling prelop in the first place.

[Exitonly]

i forgot to mention, your CR amount was too low.. a guideline i follow loosely, which i'm not sure if this is right or not, just what i usually go on... if i have less than 10x the bet that i have to call, any raise i make would be a push... like, his bet was 8k and you only had 49k or something.. so definitely anyy raise i'm making here is pushing.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
i forgot to mention, your CR amount was too low.. a guideline i follow loosely, which i'm not sure if this is right or not, just what i usually go on... if i have less than 10x the bet that i have to call, any raise i make would be a push... like, his bet was 8k and you only had 49k or something.. so definitely anyy raise i'm making here is pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah don't min-raise.