Lame AQ question

[Perseus]

I am no more than a breakeven player with AQ for whatever reason. I think I am way overplaying this hand. This question is for online low limits, say 2/4 and 3/6, full ring.

Here is the question. You have AQo in the CO. The button is tight, the SB is unknown and the big blind is a 30/5/1 type player. Folded to MP1 who raises. Folded to you...

Also, does your opinion change if your hand is suited?

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mentioned MP1 was a complete unknown, and this is what spawned my original question. Obviously this hand is a lot easier to play if you know anything about the raiser, but in this case you don't.

[TheHammer24]

You can't vote here. It completely depends on what MP1's PFR standards are and how good he is post flop. If he is something like 35/12/2 with 50% WTSD then I three bet like it's my job. If he is 20/3/2 than I'm folding like the plauge.

[W. Deranged]

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You can't vote here. It completely depends on what MP1's PFR standards are and how good he is post flop. If he is something like 35/12/2 with 50% WTSD then I three bet like it's my job. If he is 20/3/2 than I'm folding like the plauge.

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The point of the post is to figure out some sort of "default" course when playing against a complete unknown.

Against someone on whom you have reliable stats this decision is usually quite straightforward.

But what about an unknown? What about a player who is aggressive post-flop but raises 6% pre-flop? 7%? 8%?

I certainly think by the time we get to 9% you should be three-betting automatically; 5% seems like you're going to be behind villain's range probably. I think the cutoff is something like 6-8%.

Against an unknown I actually imagine that this decision is not that crucial, and you can sort of do what you want and mix it up. One important thing to think about is that the sheer fact that they are raising here makes it more likely that they have loose raising standards rather than super-tight ones. So I voted raise against an unknown, but I hardly think it matters in the long-run if you are good about collecting stats and are usually making this decision with more information.

And the most important thing, of course, is how you are playing post-flop with AQ. If you are losing with it, it is because you are misplaying it post-flop, and not primarily because you are sometimes making thin pre-flop positions that get you in tough spots. Post an AQ hand for us to discuss.

[Bluffoon]

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I am no more than a breakeven player with AQ for whatever reason. I think I am way overplaying this hand. This question is for online low limits, say 2/4 and 3/6, full ring.

Here is the question. You have AQo in the CO. The button is tight, the SB is unknown and the big blind is a 30/5/1 type player. Folded to MP1 who raises. Folded to you...

Also, does your opinion change if your hand is suited?

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mentioned MP1 was a complete unknown, and this is what spawned my original question. Obviously this hand is a lot easier to play if you know anything about the raiser, but in this case you don't.

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It's my opinion that the default player at these levels pays more attention to their cards than their position or the situation. So against a total unknown I fold here but it wouldnt take much evidence that they are even a little bit aggressive to change this to a raise.

[Fat Nicky]

I 3-bet, because it's a realllly close decision, and 3-betting is more fun than folding.

If Happydaz is in MP1, I'm raising that fucker, he has loose raising standards and I've seen him put in bets with hands like AJ os, ATs, KJ s, 66-88. Against the unknown I fold here but perhaps that's weak tight. If it's AQs I 3-bet here everytime, the cards are pretty and I like playing pretty cards.

[hellite]

So happy, how many of these hands against this loose raiser (and lets remember you are putting in three bets) are you currently ahead of or a favorite? Count them. It is a losing bet.
This is a pretty basic preflop question, unfortunately, the resident experts have already begun to show that their preflop play needs clear work. AQo against even a semi-loose raiser is a fold the majority of the time that the raise comes from early position. This obviously changes as you get to middle position where people open raise with much weaker hands.

Hellite, isn't middle position middle position? Or do you consider MP1 to be more early position?

For what it's worth, I voted fold in the poll. Perhaps you didn't understand my sarcasm, I'd 3-bet against me, as I am a 20/10, but fold vs. an unknown. In all seriousness, here's my own hand range in MP1 in a typical game: AA-66, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AQo, AJo, KQo. We're behind Happydaz's range in 27 combos, tied with 11 combos, coin flipping with 51 combos and ahead of 25 combos. Thus, a 3-bet really isn't too bad and we're in position anyway.
Math: (feel free to correct me if I missed anything)

behind: 27

AA : 3 combos
KK : 6
QQ: 3,
AKs :3, AKo: 12

coin flip with: 33
JJ-66 6 combos each, KQs 3, KQ o 12

tie: AQs two combos, AQo 9 combos

ahead of: 25
AJs 3, ATs 3, KQs 3, KJs 4, AJo 12

[edited: miscounted my pair combos, this has been fixed.]

[crunchy1]

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AQo against even a semi-loose raiser is a fold the majority of the time that the raise comes from early position.

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You must be jopking!

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This obviously changes as you get to middle position where people open raise with much weaker hands.

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In the OP's example the PFR is in middle position - yet you seem to be siding with the fold crowd?!?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Math: (feel free to correct me if I missed anything)

behind:

AA : 6 combos
KK : 12
QQ: 6,
AKs :3, AKo: 12

coin flip with:
JJ-66 12 combos each, KQs 3, KQ o 12

tie: AQs two combos, AQo 9 combos

ahead of:
AJs 3, ATs 3, KQs 3, KJs 4, AJo 12

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I think your math might be off b/c you are double-counting certain combos. For example, you say that there are 6 available combos for A-A. However, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is the same as A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so there really are only 3 remaining A-A combos, not the 6 you suggest. This might change your calculations.

Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

Fixed, thank you Shean. I automatically was multiplying my pairs x 2, stupid cribbage scoring always gets the better of me.

[krimson]

I 3-bet. We're ahead of a good chunk of middle position raising hands, and have position. I would only fold if I had a read that MP1 was overly tight. Raise over cold-calling to get the hands headsup, create dead money in the blinds.

Without a read, just fold A-Q preflop to a raise. Even if you happen to have the best hand, you have no way of knowing that. Often times your going to get stuck dumping off a lot of bets with the second best hand (ie, flop is Q-8-3 against KK; A-10-3 against AK; etc.). And when you do make the best hand, you're normally not going to get paid off anyway. The reality is that you're only going to hit an A or Q 1/3 of the time on the flop (and plenty of times you hit your Q and still don't have top pair b/c a K hits, thus the power of A-K, always TPTK if you hit). So 2/3 the time, you have an unimproved A-Q. Even if you have the best hand and the original raiser has K-Jo, what are you going to do when he keeps firing away? Keep calling and praying you're good? So 2/3 the time you're going to miss and probably end up having to let go of it, and 1/3 of the time you're going to hit and be left guessing if you're good or not. Make things easy on yourself and fold to the preflop raise, assuming no reads. This is at best a neutral EV spot, and I suspect it's highly -EV. After all, when you win, you'll probably win a fairly small pot; and when you lose, you lose a big pot. You're not going to be able to outplay too many people at small stakes, so just make it easy on yourself and fold A-Q to the raise.

[PITTM]

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Without a read, just fold A-Q preflop to a raise. Even if you happen to have the best hand, you have no way of knowing that. Often times your going to get stuck dumping off a lot of bets with the second best hand (ie, flop is Q-8-3 against KK; A-10-3 against AK; etc.). And when you do make the best hand, you're normally not going to get paid off anyway. The reality is that you're only going to hit an A or Q 1/3 of the time on the flop (and plenty of times you hit your Q and still don't have top pair b/c a K hits, thus the power of A-K, always TPTK if you hit). So 2/3 the time, you have an unimproved A-Q. Even if you have the best hand and the original raiser has K-Jo, what are you going to do when he keeps firing away? Keep calling and praying you're good? So 2/3 the time you're going to miss and probably end up having to let go of it, and 1/3 of the time you're going to hit and be left guessing if you're good or not. Make things easy on yourself and fold to the preflop raise, assuming no reads. This is at best a neutral EV spot, and I suspect it's highly -EV. After all, when you win, you'll probably win a fairly small pot; and when you lose, you lose a big pot. You're not going to be able to outplay too many people at small stakes, so just make it easy on yourself and fold A-Q to the raise.

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is this sarcastic? i hope it is...

rj

[SackUp]

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Without a read, just fold A-Q preflop to a raise. Even if you happen to have the best hand, you have no way of knowing that. Often times your going to get stuck dumping off a lot of bets with the second best hand (ie, flop is Q-8-3 against KK; A-10-3 against AK; etc.). And when you do make the best hand, you're normally not going to get paid off anyway. The reality is that you're only going to hit an A or Q 1/3 of the time on the flop (and plenty of times you hit your Q and still don't have top pair b/c a K hits, thus the power of A-K, always TPTK if you hit). So 2/3 the time, you have an unimproved A-Q. Even if you have the best hand and the original raiser has K-Jo, what are you going to do when he keeps firing away? Keep calling and praying you're good? So 2/3 the time you're going to miss and probably end up having to let go of it, and 1/3 of the time you're going to hit and be left guessing if you're good or not. Make things easy on yourself and fold to the preflop raise, assuming no reads. This is at best a neutral EV spot, and I suspect it's highly -EV. After all, when you win, you'll probably win a fairly small pot; and when you lose, you lose a big pot. I cannot outplay too many people at small stakes, so I fold A-Q to the raise.

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is this sarcastic? i hope it is...

rj

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I think this is what he meant

[HajiShirazu]

Choosing to raise or fold here is so close against a random MP1 with no reads that it's not going to matter much either way. Doing a better job of getting statistical/real reads would help you more than asking questions like this. But not to be a total [censored] and answer the question, I figure it's about 55% equity against some guys and 45% against others, but the good news is that I get to check behind one or more of the streets if I don't like what I see and he doesn't, plus there's less worry that others are coming along here so that extra 2.50 from the blinds goes in the pot, another thing that leans toward a play. I figure that's good enough to 3-bet, let's see a flop.
Against an UTG guy, it's 50% against some and 35% against others. Now we have a fold.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I raise here all the time unless I have a read or stats that say otherwise. It's a fold against a tight player, but the average player isn't tight. If this is a fold in your avg game then your game selection needs work.