OT: Party vs Stars (ROI impact)

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Saturday I opened a Stars account because I could not log into Party. I was happy to see that the turbos had a lower rake! ... But only 9 players??? So I wondered if this lower rake would improve my currently break-even /images/graemlins/frown.gif ROI. So I put this little analysis together. Other factors such as skill level will affect ROI, but I don't know how to measure that. Does anyone know if Stars players (at the low buy-ins) are better/worse than Party players? Anyway here is my quick analysis.

..................Stars......Party
# Games..............12.........12
# Players.............9.........10
Buy-In...........$15.00.....$10.00
Fee...............$1.00......$1.00
Total Buy-In.....$16.00.....$11.00
Rake %.............6.7%......10.0%

Payout %
1st.................50% 50%
2nd.................30% 30%
3rd.................20% 20%
OOTM.................0% 0%

1st Finishes..........1..........1
2nd Finishes..........1..........1
3rd Finishes..........3..........3
OOTM..................7..........7
Total Games Played...12.........12

Cost.............$192.00...$132.00
Winnings.........$189.00...$140.00
Profit/(Loss)....$(3.00).....$8.00

ROI %.............-1.6%.......6.1%
ITM %.............41.7%......41.7%

So I guess I need to stay at Party because that one additional player outways the lower rake... unless their servers are down... and obviously continue to work on my 'break-even' game /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Sabrazack]

You forgot to take into account that it is easier to win/finish ITM with only 9 players. Kind of a big point, don't you think?

[runner4life7]

your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this was a hypothetical calculation... but I do get more 3rds than 1st and 2nds and I coincidentally just posted about that /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[runner4life7]

yeah definately look into fixing that, your roi can jump a ton obviously with a lot more 1sts even if ITM goes down. If the other one is the A9 all in I think i still make that move but I think its close.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to take into account that it is easier to win/finish ITM with only 9 players. Kind of a big point, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a good point, but again how do I measure that in terms of ROI (11% chance at a 9 table vs a 10% chance at a 10 table)? Similar to how do I measure the skill level impact on ROI at Party vs. Stars?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this was a hypothetical calculation... but I do get more 3rds than 1st and 2nds and I coincidentally just posted about that /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a big problem...Or, I should say, over a large sample that can be indicative of a big problem.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this was a hypothetical calculation... but I do get more 3rds than 1st and 2nds and I coincidentally just posted about that /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a big problem...Or, I should say, over a large sample that can be indicative of a big problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any suggestions? Maybe you want to post answer on that post...

[microbet]

Seems like lower rake will be better. I know almost nothing about the stars games or players and am interested in the subject, but don't want to be the one to ask all the dumb questions where the answer is "do a search" or "look at the stars website", so someone else please ask some dumb questions.

Also, I want to see the results of the poll, so I am going to vote that they are the same, eventhough I have no idea.

[pooh74]

The A9 hand I would probably fold, he raised almost half your stack...unless you are sure you have his range beat, then I would fold. (note: you most likely do have his range beat, but you have no FE, so why not call and push in on the flop maybe). I would just fold and wait for a btter spot or the other guy to bust...Not to say I wouldnt push A9 as first in...absolutely!

The thing I bet is your problem is that you are not playing a bigstack optimally on the bubble and are content staying average to squeek in.

You are probably playing with fear of busting 4th or 5th very often and are not enetering ITM with a healthy stack. These are just my guesses.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
The A9 hand I would probably fold, he raised almost half your stack...unless you are sure you have his range beat, then I would fold. (note: you most likely do have his range beat, but you have no FE, so why not call and push in on the flop maybe). I would just fold and wait for a btter spot or the other guy to bust...Not to say I wouldnt push A9 as first in...absolutely!

The thing I bet is your problem is that you are not playing a bigstack optimally on the bubble and are content staying average to squeek in.

You are probably playing with fear of busting 4th or 5th very often and are not enetering ITM with a healthy stack. These are just my guesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, I rarely enter ITM with a big stack... I hate busting out OOTM and I get aggressive when my stack gets low and I relax if I am avg or better. I will strengthen my calling range baring a good read. Thanks

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The A9 hand I would probably fold, he raised almost half your stack...unless you are sure you have his range beat, then I would fold. (note: you most likely do have his range beat, but you have no FE, so why not call and push in on the flop maybe). I would just fold and wait for a btter spot or the other guy to bust...Not to say I wouldnt push A9 as first in...absolutely!

The thing I bet is your problem is that you are not playing a bigstack optimally on the bubble and are content staying average to squeek in.

You are probably playing with fear of busting 4th or 5th very often and are not enetering ITM with a healthy stack. These are just my guesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, I rarely enter ITM with a big stack... I hate busting out OOTM and I get aggressive when my stack gets low and I relax if I am avg or better. I will strengthen my calling range baring a good read. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Focus on looking for spots when your stack is healthy to pick on medium stacks near the bubble. Dont EVER relax.

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 12 games??? You gotta be kidding...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 12 games??? You gotta be kidding...

[/ QUOTE ]

i didnt even see the sample size, thats funny though. I think he was complaining though that this is his norm.

[citanul]

i don't understand why you labeled this post OT. this is ON TOPIC. unless of course OT means both ON Topic and OFF topic, in which case well, we're just screwed, aren't we?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand why you labeled this post OT. this is ON TOPIC. unless of course OT means both ON Topic and OFF topic, in which case well, we're just screwed, aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and LC also means "Loadsof content"

I have similar numbers as OP, but I instead play at FT.
So FT has 9 person tables, but the payout is 50% of a $90 pool.

I guess my point is that, ummm.... well.. not sure what my point was... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

My game has changed so much (read: improved) since I last played at PP though so I don't think I can compare the results on my spreadsheet. I think the numbers work out in my favor though.

[Guthrie]

In my limited experience with the Stars 11s, my 1,2,3 percentage is 23,29,25. Once I get ITM it seems to be a matter of who wins the most coin flips, without much regard to stack sizes coming in off the bubble.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 12 games??? You gotta be kidding...

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a hypothetical analysis on ROI Party vs Stars all other things equal except rake % and 9 players vs 10, not my personal success on either... please read before you jump to conclusions or I'll karate chop your a$$ judo girl

[GrinningBuddha]

With the 9 player tables, you should be changing one of your OOTM finishes to a 3rd, or even doing that and changing one 3rd place finish to a 2nd place finish. Once you've done that, recalculate your ROI. I think that would be more realistic comparision given the different starting # of players.

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 12 games??? You gotta be kidding...

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a hypothetical analysis on ROI Party vs Stars all other things equal except rake % and 9 players vs 10, not my personal success on either... please read before you jump to conclusions or I'll karate chop your a$$ judo girl

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that over 12 games one can draw no conclusion about what a high percentage of 3rd place wins means...not sure what you think my point was...

re karate chops...most fights wind up ending on the ground, where karate chops have little effectiveness...so when I wrestle you down and put you in a choke hold, you can thrash, slobber, struggle, and karate chop all you want. Your struggles will soon cease as the lack of blood to your head sends you to that peaceful place that comes when everything around you slowly fades to black... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
With the 9 player tables, you should be changing one of your OOTM finishes to a 3rd, or even doing that and changing one 3rd place finish to a 2nd place finish. Once you've done that, recalculate your ROI. I think that would be more realistic comparision given the different starting # of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, ... I am not sure how to express my thought... but one more 2nd or 3rd over 10 games is more significant than say over 20 games. So how many more ITM would I have at a 9 person table vs a 10 AND over how many games (i.e. 4 ITM in 4 games vs 4 ITM 10 games or 4 ITM 20 games... etc?) 4 ITM for every 9 games vs 3 for every 10? Do you understand my question?

[ QUOTE ]

ROI %.............-1.6%.......6.1%
ITM %.............41.7%......41.7%


[/ QUOTE ] If it were just random, you'd expect your ITM% to go up when there are only nine players (instead of ten) while they still pay the same three places.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your ITM sucks, why so many 3rds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 12 games??? You gotta be kidding...

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a hypothetical analysis on ROI Party vs Stars all other things equal except rake % and 9 players vs 10, not my personal success on either... please read before you jump to conclusions or I'll karate chop your a$$ judo girl

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that over 12 games one can draw no conclusion about what a high percentage of 3rd place wins means...not sure what you think my point was...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just playing with the ITM finishes to see if it made a difference (comparing Party vs Stars)

[ QUOTE ]


re karate chops...most fights wind up ending on the ground, where karate chops have little effectiveness...so when I wrestle you down and put you in a choke hold, you can thrash, slobber, struggle, and karate chop all you want. Your struggles will soon cease as the lack of blood to your head sends you to that happy place that comes when everything around you slowly fades to black... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like fun... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ROI %.............-1.6%.......6.1%
ITM %.............41.7%......41.7%


[/ QUOTE ] If it were just random, you'd expect your ITM% to go up when there are only nine players (instead of ten) while they still pay the same three places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was keeping all things equal except rake, and # of players which is the difference between Paty and Stars. Buy-in is also different, but not relevent in ROI percentage terms

[ QUOTE ]
In my limited experience with the Stars 11s, my 1,2,3 percentage is 23,29,25. Once I get ITM it seems to be a matter of who wins the most coin flips, without much regard to stack sizes coming in off the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]77% ITM?

[bluefeet]

DJ,

Comparing PP $10+1 & PS $15+1

PP - "30% get paid"
Stars - "33.333333333333333333333333.. get paid"

if you start with a PP ITM of 40, take the extra 3.333333....

PP - 20roi
PS - 18roi (roughly)

...with an even finish distribution.

If your ITM places look more like 20%,30%,50%...you're looking at 5.45 vs. 4.40roim respectively.

You haven't kept all things equal. How many 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th place finishes?

You've switched from a game that pays 30% of the players to one that pays 1/3 of the players. At the very least, you ought to increase your ITM% by about 11%.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]

DJ,

Comparing PP $10+1 & PS $15+1

PP - "30% get paid"
Stars - "33.333333333333333333333333.. get paid"

if you start with a PP ITM of 40, take the extra 3.333333....

PP - 20roi
PS - 18roi (roughly)

...with an even finish distribution.

If your ITM places look more like 20%,30%,50%...you're looking at 5.45 vs. 4.40roim respectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I am reading your post correctly, your ROI at Party will be better no matter how you slice it because of the 10th person at the table, offset slightly due to a lower rake at the Stars turbo's.

Several have commented that finishing ITM at Stars is easier because there is only 9 people and I need to factor that in. How? An extra 10-11% has been suggested... so if you finish ITM 30% (math is easier in my head than 40% ITM) at party (3 out of 10 games or 9 out of 30 games, should you finish ITM at Stars 10 out of 30 games due to playing against one less person? And which ITM finish do you assume, b/c that makes big difference to ROI, obviously. If this is a good assumption I will plug in those #'s (with the additional ITM going to 3rd)...

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

re karate chops...most fights wind up ending on the ground, where karate chops have little effectiveness...so when I wrestle you down and put you in a choke hold, you can thrash, slobber, struggle, and karate chop all you want. Your struggles will soon cease as the lack of blood to your head sends you to that peaceful place that comes when everything around you slowly fades to black... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This almost surely is the best piece of information in the whole thread so far.

Of course, this thread is pretty silly.

Yugoslav

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]


Of course, this thread is pretty silly.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yugo, Please explain your reasoning, I provided some math which seems to suggest that there is a difference in ROI. I posted to validate or find out if I am way off base. You suggest that I am way off base, but provide no real info to explain why? You have helped me before, for which I am thankful. please help me now by explaining why this is wrong?

[The Yugoslavian]

None of this is necessarily wrong (well, the first analysis is pretty bad which others have elaborated on).

The thing is, even if one is playing the Stars Turbos, they aren't really party poker STTs in terms of time or payout or even chip structure. Theoretically I see where you are going but the problem is that no one can give you enough comprable data on both party and stars from which to pull. We're just simply making up #s in this thread. I mean, we are going to be somewhat close in the #s we make up but I don't think anyone can come up with even a consensus on what the true ROI difference would be between an $11 PP player and a $16 Stars Turbo player should be, could be, or will be.

This all seems to be perhaps a useless exercise (although somewhat interesting - I mean, I am reading the damn thread, /images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

Has someone like Pooh (you play a bunch, right?) played a couple thousands PS turbos and a couple thousand PP turbos at the low stakes? UMTerp may also be able to shed light on this but I don't think he's really played enough PP STTs.

Yugoslav

[Uppercut]

I have played the $11s at both Party and Pokerstars and the biggest difference I see is not the quality of the players, but the extra 700 chips one starts out with at Pokerstars. I am very patient, so I like the extra chips, although the downside is that the games last much longer (over an hour is the norm). But with 700 extra chips, I can lose 300-400 early on with a preflop raise of 120 with my AKo and a continuation bet that gets raised on the flop and not be in pushbot mode by level 3. For example, just today I checked the big blind with T2o during level 1 and bet the flop when it came AT2 rainbow. I ended up losing about 700 chips to someone's ATo, but I still had 800 chips left at this point and we were still in level 1, so I had 40BB left. I stayed even until level 4 and then doubled up and ended up winning the tournament. This could not have happened at Party.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
None of this is necessarily wrong (well, the first analysis is pretty bad which others have elaborated on).

The thing is, even if one is playing the Stars Turbos, they aren't really party poker STTs in terms of time or payout or even chip structure. Theoretically I see where you are going but the problem is that no one can give you enough comprable data on both party and stars from which to pull. We're just simply making up #s in this thread. I mean, we are going to be somewhat close in the #s we make up but I don't think anyone can come up with even a consensus on what the true ROI difference would be between an $11 PP player and a $16 Stars Turbo player should be, could be, or will be.

This all seems to be perhaps a useless exercise (although somewhat interesting - I mean, I am reading the damn thread, /images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

Has someone like Pooh (you play a bunch, right?) played a couple thousands PS turbos and a couple thousand PP turbos at the low stakes? UMTerp may also be able to shed light on this but I don't think he's really played enough PP STTs.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I cant help here...I have almost 8000 turbos, and 1 PP STT. I cant figure out the ratio, but I dont thinks its good. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
None of this is necessarily wrong (well, the first analysis is pretty bad which others have elaborated on).

The thing is, even if one is playing the Stars Turbos, they aren't really party poker STTs in terms of time or payout or even chip structure. Theoretically I see where you are going but the problem is that no one can give you enough comprable data on both party and stars from which to pull. We're just simply making up #s in this thread. I mean, we are going to be somewhat close in the #s we make up but I don't think anyone can come up with even a consensus on what the true ROI difference would be between an $11 PP player and a $16 Stars Turbo player should be, could be, or will be.

This all seems to be perhaps a useless exercise (although somewhat interesting - I mean, I am reading the damn thread, /images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

Has someone like Pooh (you play a bunch, right?) played a couple thousands PS turbos and a couple thousand PP turbos at the low stakes? UMTerp may also be able to shed light on this but I don't think he's really played enough PP STTs.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I cant help here...I have almost 8000 turbos, and 1 PP STT. I cant figure out the ratio, but I dont thinks its good. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay...maybe Lori can shed some light on this issue...

Or that Terp guy....who by the way must have like a bajillion brothers or something b/c every other dude I play on Stars is XXTerp.....DickTerp still owes me $500 from that bad beat he put on me in a 500 HU yesterday, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Oh, wait....I think his name was StanzeeTerp!!! Well, it all makes sense now!

Yugoslav
Who won't rest until he gets some sort of decent guesstimation for Jeckyl...

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I certainly have trouble explaining my thoughts and I think this is the case here as well... so let me try another way... from a purely pay structure perspective (cost of each game vs what you can win), assuming everything else is equal... IDENTICAL in comparison of Party and Stars (i.e. finish distribution of 1 game or 1 million games, skill level, bad beats, whatever...) Party provideds a higher ROI b/c there SnG has 10 people vs. Stars' 9 people SnG. Now, at Bluefeet's suggestion I changed the ITM % to assume that if you're playing against 9 people it is about 10% easier to get ITM. So I reran the #'s and if you can get ITM 10x at Stars (due to 9 opponents) vs 9x at Party, and the extra ITM is 1st or 2nd your Stars ROI would be better (over 30 games), But if the extra ITM is only a 3rd, Party ROI would still be better ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. Now since it is physically impossible for me to get higher than 3rd, maybe I should stay at Party... /images/graemlins/mad.gif


W/ an extra 2nd place finish...
Stars Party
# Games 30 30
# Players 9 10
Buy-In $15.00 $10.00
Fee $1.00 $1.00
Total Buy-In $16.00 $11.00
Rake % 6.7% 10.0%

Payout %
1st 50% 50%
2nd 30% 30%
3rd 20% 20%
OOTM 0% 0%

1st Finishes 3 3
2nd Finishes 4 3
3rd Finishes 3 3
OOTM 20 21
Total Games Played 30 30

Cost $480.00 $330.00
Winnings $445.50 $300.00
Profit/(Loss) $(34.50) $(30.00)

ROI % -7.2% -9.1%
ITM % 33.3% 30.0%

Now another big difference is the difference in starting chips. I am not sure how the t1500 chips you start with at Stars helps or hurts when compared to the t800 you start with at Party. Any suggestions on how this affects ROI?

[pooh74]

There's actually a "poohterp" as well...apparently I went to the University of Maryland w/o realizing it. I must have dropped out, because there is no precedent for me blanking out 4 years of my life. 2 has been the max til now.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Now another big difference is the difference in starting chips. I am not sure how the t1500 chips you start with at Stars helps or hurts when compared to the t800 you start with at Party. Any suggestions on how this affects ROI?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have more leeway to manipulate the pot postflop at Stars Turbos. You don't have the time to do it that you have in the regular stars STTs but that's somewhat inconsequential.

At the same time, Stars blinds go up way higher than Party's so you face some late game situations where you have a monster stack and are at like 7xBB.

The sort of interesting levels are when the ante is introduced but the blinds stay at like 100/200.....that is about the time where if you're shortish you have 10 minutes to accumulate chips before the blinds start smacking everyone over the head hardcore style. Knowing the texture of the table and how you will get past those levels without still being short seems to be crucial, IMO.

Yugoslav

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Some good points... I definitely have to make some adjustments based on stack size if I am going to play at Stars

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
Once I get ITM it seems to be a matter of who wins the most coin flips, without much regard to stack sizes coming in off the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about this sentence a bit more. You have obviously missed why coming off the bubble with the most chips is so important.

If I have more chips than you I can surivive more coin flip losses than you. Hence if we were of the same skill, and came off the bubble with x2 chips than you I have a much greater chance of 1st than you.

If you have 3 players of equal skill ITM their chips sizes will totaly dictate finish distribution over time.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my limited experience with the Stars 11s, my 1,2,3 percentage is 23,29,25. Once I get ITM it seems to be a matter of who wins the most coin flips, without much regard to stack sizes coming in off the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]77% ITM?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is over 100% ROI. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I love it when people just write down arbitrary numbers for their own stats.


>ZIPPPY

[ChrisW]

Stars players are better at low limits, but the Stars structure is more skillful because:

1) Each player starts with more chips at Stars relative to the blind sizes. (PP t1000 is approximately equal to Stars t1500, so the t800 games at PP are much shallower.)

2) The blinds increase more slowly at Stars. Even a Stars turbo has five minute levels. When the table gets shorthanded, it plays well over ten hands in those five minutes. More hands per level= more skill. In Stars non-turbos, the difference in blind escalation vs. PP is just huge. (Of course, one can play twice as many Turbos per hour as non-turbos, so a good player's hourly rate will almost certainly be higher in the Turbos even though his ROI will be lower.)

So, you probably need a slightly higher skill level to beat the Stars games, but if you have that higher skill level you should have a greater ROI at the given buyin. Or, to put it another way, a small long-run winner at PP might be a small loser playing at Stars, but a large long-run winner at PP might easily have a larger ROI at Stars.

I wonder what is the maximum ROI possible in the Stars $11 non-turbos. I'd guess 100% is emintently achievable by a strong player, i.e. a winner at much higher limits. If the player achieves equal numbers of firsts through thirds, he'd need to scratch two thirds of the time to achieve that goal. If good players in the much stronger and less formful $109 PP SNGs can finish ITM well over 40% of the time while still trying to win, they should be able to get 67% (or a little less with a disproportionate number of wins) in a weak, deep-stacked event.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I want to see the results of the poll, so I am going to vote that they are the same, eventhough I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I did. Looks like the results might be skewed somewhat.

Suppose you play 90 $10+1 SNG at PP and 90 $15+1 SNG at PS. Let's also suppose you finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. equal amounts of the time.

At PP, you'll pay $990 in entries and fees, and be paid $50x9 + $30x9 + $20x9 = $900 => -9.1% ROI.

At PS, you'll pay $1440 in entries and fees, and be paid $67.50x10 + $40.50x10 + $27x10 = $1350 => -6.25% ROI.

None of this should be surprising, it's just the difference in the rake percentage. So, let's work with your 1:1:3 1st:2nd:3rd ratio. If we fix the ratio, but increase ITM% by 1/9 (to reflect one fewer player), the ITM% increases to 41.7% x 10/9 = 46.33% => 9.27% 1st, 9.27% 2nd, and 27.8% 3rd (to keep the 1:1:3 ratio). That means you expect to be paid $17.52 per $15+1 SNG => 9.5% ROI.

You already computed your PP ROI to be 6.1%. Given just this information, you'd be better off at PS. But, the differences in the game structures is likely far more important than the 10v9 players or the 6.7%v10% rakes. Whether the different structure at PS is good or bad for you is something you'll probably only find out with experience.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Stars players are better at low limits

[/ QUOTE ]

You know...after hearing this for months and finally playing for a couple of months on Stars I'm not sure I believe this widely held assumption anymore.

Different? Yes.

'Better'? I don't actually think so.

Yugoslav

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you play 90 $10+1 SNG at PP and 90 $15+1 SNG at PS. Let's also suppose you finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. equal amounts of the time.

At PP, you'll pay $990 in entries and fees, and be paid $50x9 + $30x9 + $20x9 = $900 => -9.1% ROI.

At PS, you'll pay $1440 in entries and fees, and be paid $67.50x10 + $40.50x10 + $27x10 = $1350 => -6.25% ROI.

None of this should be surprising, it's just the difference in the rake percentage. So, let's work with your 1:1:3 1st:2nd:3rd ratio. If we fix the ratio, but increase ITM% by 1/9 (to reflect one fewer player), the ITM% increases to 41.7% x 10/9 = 46.33% => 9.27% 1st, 9.27% 2nd, and 27.8% 3rd (to keep the 1:1:3 ratio). That means you expect to be paid $17.52 per $15+1 SNG => 9.5% ROI.

You already computed your PP ROI to be 6.1%. Given just this information, you'd be better off at PS. But, the differences in the game structures is likely far more important than the 10v9 players or the 6.7%v10% rakes. Whether the different structure at PS is good or bad for you is something you'll probably only find out with experience.

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I think I agree with you... I believe I said (or attempted to say) in my post this morning, that if you get ITM 10% more due to 1 less opponent at Stars, AND this additional ITM is 1st or 2nd, then Stars would provide the better ROI.

By game structure I assume you mean differences in starting chips and blinds (amt and intervals) and they should have an impact too... but I am not sure how to measure it...

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I think I agree with you... I believe I said (or attempted to say) in my post this morning, that if you get ITM 10% more due to 1 less opponent at Stars, AND this additional ITM is 1st or 2nd, then Stars would provide the better ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]No reason to say it has to be 1st or 2nd, just figure out what it will be on average. Even if the extra ITM is distributed in the 1:1:3 ratio you cited, you'll be ahead at PS.
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By game structure I assume you mean differences in starting chips and blinds (amt and intervals) and they should have an impact too... but I am not sure how to measure it...

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think you can measure it. This sort of thing will affect different people differently. It will probably take some time to get used to, so you might experience a brief downswing. Then again, from what I read here, the PS turbos aren't that much different than the PP SNGs.