$33 - AJs level 1, flop TP + draw

[schwza]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t770)
SB (t1015)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t920)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t775)
Hero (t770)
CO (t580)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t40</font>, Hero ??

[tigerite]

Raise. Any diamond may kill your action and you could very well have the best hand right now anyway.

[schwza]

bump for evening crowd.

[-Skeme-]

You can't say any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif will kill your action and follow it up with "and you MAY have the best hand right now."

[lastchance]

Your hand = good right now.

Make the raise, charge the flush draw to draw dead, and be prepared to call the 3-bet.

Get your money in while your hand is still a monster.

I would reraise to the size of the pot and be fine getting it all in after a 3-bet on this flop. If villian just calls my flop bet and checked to me on the turn, I would take a free card on any blank, raise 150/200 more on any diamond. I would call any bet on the river after checking behind on the turn and would push if my hand improved. If I check behind on the turn and river blanks and villian checks again, I might consider an overbet representing a missed draw in hopes of a loose call. I also think betting 200 or so gets called by worse holdings on the river.

[schwza]

i'm surprised everyone was saying to raise. this was my thinking:

- if someone besides utg has a diamond draw, my raise will probably make them fold. it's not that likely that any of them do, but missing out on a ~1/6 chance on the turn and river to catch a card that guarantees busting someone stinks. if utg has a diamond draw, he’ll call my raise, so that’s not a concern.

- if someone has an oesd, it stinks a little to let them come along for cheap, but they only have 6 outs to bust me, and if one of the 2 straight/flush cards comes, i take a lot of money off them. and i have a redraw if they hit their 6-outer.

- if someone has a gutshot or worse A, whoopy, they have 3 outs and i’m content to let them put money in.

so my hand is not particularly vulnerable. i’m only worried about the odd 2 pair or set, as AQ/AK usually raises. i’m happy to try to extract from Ax. the decision in my mind is whether or not to raise the turn/river if he keeps betting. i.e., play it like “keep the pot small / he’ll fold worse and reraise better” or like “i have the best hand and will be paid off by worse, so get chips in.”


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t770)
SB (t1015)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t920)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t775)
Hero (t770)
CO (t580)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t40</font>, Hero calls t40, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t155) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t70</font>, hero?

[zambonidrivr]

he is giving you proper odds to make the call. I would call and see the river here. What makes this hand difficult for me is that it's so early. I'm almost inclined to fold preflop, but I am sure that's not a popular choice around here.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
he is giving you proper odds to make the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

even considering folding the turn is really bad, imo.

[zambonidrivr]

i was suggesting a fold preflpp vs. post

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
he is giving you proper odds to make the call. I would call and see the river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't want to swamp the thread with this, but you're giving justification for why calling the turn is better than folding. i'm saying folding is obviously wrong and the conversation is between raising and calling.

[zambonidrivr]

alrighty then. i like calling as this is level 1. you have a very strong drawing hand, and may be ahead; however your hand is also extremely vulnerable and this is level 1.

as with major championship golf. you can't win the major on thursday, but you sure as hell can piss it away.

[tigerite]

Definitely call here; you'd hate to see a re-raise.

[otctrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely call here; you'd hate to see a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a raise will fold out weaker aces, mid-pairs, and give him a chance to jam monsters. The only draw you're worried about charging is an unlikely 89; if he's drawing dead to the same flush you'll get paid off regardless on the river if it hits.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely call here; you'd hate to see a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i agree with that now. my thought then was that i needed to raise to extract the maximum from weaker A's. fortunately, the poker gods rewarded my bad play.

now how much to bet?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t770)
SB (t1015)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t920)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t775)
Hero (t770)
CO (t580)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t40</font>, Hero calls t40, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t155) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t70</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t220</font>, UTG+2 calls t150.

River: (t595) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, hero?

[tigerite]

Well, in my opinion you have represented having an ace afraid of the draw, so now, you should check in the hope he bluffs at the pot on the river, "representing" the flush. That card, in his eyes, has to be a scare card and I find it hard to believe after your show of strength on the turn, that he won't reckon a check is a show of weakness. Then, naturally, you shove and hope he calls.

Feck forget that, he acted first. Erm. I think you want to bet the most that he will both call, and not believe you "want a call" from, if that makes sense. Something like 2/3rds of the pot? It's read dependent really. Ideally, maybe, bet a really small amount (with respect to the pot) to make it look like it was really the card you did not want to see, and hope he comes over the top.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in my opinion you have represented having an ace afraid of the draw, so now, you should check in the hope he bluffs at the pot on the river, "representing" the flush. That card, in his eyes, has to be a scare card and I find it hard to believe after your show of strength on the turn, that he won't reckon a check is a show of weakness. Then, naturally, you shove and hope he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? i'm in position. i'm not checking any time.

[tigerite]

Yes, sorry, I just noticed that and edited my post..

[otctrader]

[ QUOTE ]
River: (t595) 3 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably knows you'll check down any non-flush hand so a value bet looks suspicious. I'd shove the nuts in his face and hope he assumes you're bluffing and/or calls if he was slowplaying something strong.

I think there are two ways to bet this river. First, from the action and his remaining stack, I think he'll call a bet around 250 75% of the time. The question is will he call a bet of 500 more than 37.5% of the time? This comes down to reads. Against a very good or very bad player, I think overbetting/pushing is good. The former would think you would value bet with a made flush, and the latter won't be able to fold their two pair or AJ or whatever. Against a standard player, I would just bet around 200/250 which I think he will have to call (or feel like he will) because of pot odds.

[schwza]

i have T495 left in a pot of 595. i'm not sure if this is reasonable, but i thought my two options were to push or to bet something like 250. for some reason i thought that it was "bad" to bet something like 350 or 400. probably not good on my part, but true.

so my thinking was that the most likely hands for the villain were something like 88, 98, JT, A9. possibly 77/TT/AT/A7, but i think these hands usually bet the river. i thought that 88, 98 are not calling anything. JT probably isn't either. my biggest concern was how to extract from Ax. i figured anybody who had come this far with it would probably call a push. in retrospect, i think i should've bet 250. my hand looks like exactly what it is - a flush. it's tough for a hand like A9 to call a push for almost all of his stack, and i don't want to let him get away.

finally, if he does have a strong hand - 2 pair or better - he might c/r me all-in anyway, so i'm not losing by betting instead of pushing in that case.


he said "A5" and folded and i kicked myself.