Seems too loose

[slavic]

Paradise .5/1 This table started very loose passive.

On the first orbit I'm in the SB with 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

In any position other than the blinds I muck this. In the BB I'll play it free, in the SB I'll play it with tons of callers or heads up V the BB or a steeler.

5 players limp to me, and at 13 to 1 I complete, the BB then folds. (? at least see the flop)

Flop is: 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Hmm top pair no kicker, seems like a fold to me. 5 outs.

Checks all the way around to the button who position bets.[I say this because she always does on anything but the river.] The pot is giving 8 to 1, so 8 * 5 = 40 not good odds but I may also be best hand. Still I think its a draw and if a better card comes I want out, so I call. 2 others follow.

4 see. 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif
great now all the overcard aces have too many outs. A flush draw, and me with a weak kicker.

So I check, check, check, Button Bets, 6.5 to 1 but if one or both follows I'm getting slightly low odds and still may have best hand. I call, call, call.

The river hits: 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I bet out because I can't depend on the SB, the two mid callers fold, SB calls.

I have some issues. I didn't factor that 2 of my draw cards gave up a flush, I gave little credit to a straight because most people don't try and draw straights versus flushes, I caught myself trying to convince myself to stay in when the Flop had not smacked me clear in the jaws, and I never raised the SB to see if she was really strong. It's too passive for my taste.

I think I would have done better to raise the flop and see if the SB comes out betting. Of course that kills off the draws. Or simply just to fold the flop.

[slavic]

oops excuse me I was the SB the later refrence to the SB is the button.

[Bob T.]

Preflop. Call is fine with these odds.

Flop. Noone shows any interest in this hand, until it gets to the button who autobets, according to your description. Everyone else probably knows that this bet means nothing. You should raise here, and find out if anyone really wants to play, and get rid of as many of the overcard outs as you can. If you aren't reraised, then you should lead out on the turn regardless of what card comes. We played, now we may as well try and win.

Turn, you didn't raise the flop, raise the turn for all the same reasons.

River, you have to bet, you won't be able to raise, because now you want the intermediate players to call. Betting, is probably your best chance of getting calls from them.

[JTG51]

I'd bet the flop, failing to do that I'd check raise. What makes you think anyone has you beat? You automatically put someone on a better 9 than you just because one flopped? You will have the best hand the vast majority of the time given that preflop action and that flop.

More importantly though, "Hmm top pair no kicker, seems like a fold to me. 5 outs." doesn't make a lot of sense. For you to be behind but have 5 outs, someone has to be ahead of you without having a 9, and without having a set. That means they'd have to have exactly 32, or a pair bigger than 99. Both seem highly unlikely.

[slavic]

I tried to give the Button some credit. Also would a hand like T9 raise, even though it has me dominated? Certainly A9s would. Though a check raise might get T9 to lay it down for 2 bets. Heck I'd lay down T9 to any credible bet.

Also you asked why I was treating this like a draw, well for some reason on the Paradise low limit games Top pair top kicker just doesn't ever seem to hold up. So I tend to watch my outs, so if somebody uncloaks an overpair I know If I'm OK to continue. Yea maybe I'm seeing to many ghosts in the closet.

I should have heavily charged the overcard draws though and pushed the button.

[slavic]

The Button showed T9, I had rivered her. Suprisingly she didn't seem that upset about it. I felt like I should put on my dunce cap. If I had driven her to fold aggresivly that would have been fine, but this wasn't right.

Oh well 10 new BB in the wallet.

[Ed Miller]

You played this hand horribly.

First off, when I flop top pair like this, I realize that it is relatively likely that I have the best hand. I will often check the flop, and fold to a lot of action (presumably from hands like A9 and TT)... but when the flop gets checked to the button who will bet anything here (absolutely perfect for you) it is unequivocally time to RAISE. Your hand is very vulnerable to overcards, and you desperately need them to fold. Also, it is now very likely that you indeed do have the best hand on the flop. So you have the opportunity to trap the over-aggressive button and shut out all the competition... and instead, you just called like a wet noodle. Calling and folding are, IMHO, both poor plays here... raising is clear, and it's not close.

Now the turn card comes, and it's one of the only ones in the deck that doesn't completely suck for you. For the love of god protect yourself... checkraise the turn.

Betting the river was good.

I caught myself trying to convince myself to stay in when the Flop had not smacked me clear in the jaws...

The flop doesn't have to smack you clear in the jaws for you to stay... remember, if no one else has a 9, then you are the clear favorite. The betting (or lack thereof) clearly suggests that no one else has a 9 (unless you are playing with people conscious enough to know that the button will always bet... but at such a low limit, I wouldn't count on that). You have the nuts! Play like you have the nuts.

[Ed Miller]

well for some reason on the Paradise low limit games Top pair top kicker just doesn't ever seem to hold up

I can tell you why top pair doesn't hold up... it's because you aren't protecting your hand with raises. You are also remembering the times you lost and not remembering the times you won and dragged a pot bloated with loose calls. Top pair is a strong hand, no matter the limit and no matter the caliber of opposition. If your opponents are willing to make horribly loose calls on the flop, then your hand will obviously hold up less often, but the pot will be extra bloated the times it does hold up. The fact that the calls are loose by definition means you make more money with them calling and snapping you off occasionally than you would if they just folded.

But when you fail to protect your hand with raises, then their calls are not loose anymore, and you are just giving away your money.

[Ed Miller]

If I had driven her to fold aggresivly that would have been fine, but this wasn't right.

There is no right and wrong in poker... what happens, happens. If she doesn't want you snapping her off, then let her turn her cards faceup on the flop so you can make a well-informed fold.

[JTG51]

I tried to give the Button some credit.

Why? In your previous post you said, "Checks all the way around to the button who position bets.

That hardly sounds like a player who's bet should be given credit in this situation. You said she would bet with [i]anything!

Also you asked why I was treating this like a draw,...
...so if somebody uncloaks an overpair I know If I'm OK to continue.

Do you really see people limp with pairs TT and bigger that often? I sure don't, and I'm definitely not going to be afraid of one just because I've seen it a couple of times.