Pocket 3s on the button

[gonores]

2-4 online, only my third hand, but table stats show looseness with average aggression.

I’m on the button with 3h3s

3 limpers to me, I call, both blinds come along. 6 to the flop.

Flop: 3d 8h Kd

SB bets out, BB folds, two MP limpers call, cutoff raises, I call, rest call.

As soon as I hit the call button I’m kicking myself…hard. One reason for this post is so I can get negative reinforcement on this idiotic play. Name-calling, questioning of my manhood, etc. is encouraged….it’s the only way I will learn.

Turn: 9c

SB bets out, call, fold, call, I raise, all call

River: 5s

SB bets out again. MP calls, CO folds, I call.

Should I have raised the river here? I’m baffled by the bet and call, bet and call, bet the river strategy from the SB. I’m guessing I would have received more info if I played the flop properly, but I didn’t, so I was left confused on the river.

[Fitz]

I don't see the smooth call on the flop as a necessarily bad thing. You've flopped a set, so you are very likely way ahead here; your hand is also well disguised here. I will sometimes wait until the turn to decloak and charge the max to the draws. This can be very lucrative when you have several players in the hand, and they are showing aggression in front of you.

What do you put the SB on? He didn't raise pre flop, so you can rule out KK; 88 is possible, but he is probably on a bastard two pair maybe K8, or maybe even a busted nut flush draw with an A9. I'd raise the river and call a reraise.

Good luck,

[RockLobster]

The flop was 3d 8h Kd. With 6 people to the flop and the betting action described, a 3-bet was criticial to get anyone hanging around with a drawing hand to fold, or to at least charge them for sticking around. The raise came from his immediate right, meaning everyone else would have to cold-call 2 bets in order to stay in. Besides, he flopped bottom set, so he REALLY needs to pick up the pace here.

[Dynasty]

a 3-bet was criticial to get anyone hanging around with a drawing hand to fold...

What draw on a Kd,8h,3d flop is going to fold to your 3-bet which you actually want to fold? I can't think of one.

...or to at least charge them for sticking around.

He charged them much more with the approach he took.

Besides, he flopped bottom set, so he REALLY needs to pick up the pace here.

Why? His hand is not vulnerable at all.

[bernie]

2 ways to play it really...you chose to wait to the turn.

i like to jam my sets on the flop because i also see them as a draw at that point. so even if someone had a str8 or flush on the flop, id still jam it. but that's just one approach.

your hand is vulnerable to a degree. if anyone got in and has 2 pair. but i wouldnt worry too much about that. you very likey have the best here and will have it on the turn.

you can wait to the turn to bludgeon the draws, or jam the flop to build your draw. also, jamming the pot along with your draws will have them put you on many more hands when you do so.

but the way you played was fine...

i wouldve raised the river. youd have heard from an overset on the turn much more, i think

b

[RockLobster]

Hi Dynasty--

This is funny. I posted (http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=205 100&Forum=All_Forums&Words=rocklobster&Match=Usern ame&Searchpage=18&Limit=25&Old=6months&Main=205100 &Search=true#Post205100) a couple of months ago with this type of question, and most people (including you) insisted that waiting until the turn to come to life is usually a mistake.

As far as this hand goes, there's a flush draw on the flop, and I'm holding bottom set against 6 opponents. Don't I want to charge anyone drawing to the flush? Or how about anyone with top or middle pair? Or a pocket pair bigger than my 3's?

This seemed like a routine 3-bet on the flop. Am I really that far off? If so I need to take a break and reevaluate.

EDIT: The more I think about it, I realize that it doesn't even matter to me whether I'm right or wrong (as far as my play goes)... but I REALLY don't want to be giving bad advice to anyone. If my advice was wrong, I sincerely apologize.

[Dynasty]

Your post from 2/4 was very general and I gave just a quick statement that you shouldn't always wait until the turn.

This hand is very specific. On a K,8,3 flop, there are no straight draws- not even a gut-shot draw to be concerned with. If the flop were K,T,3, then there are lots of reasonable gut-shot draws to be concerned with (AQ, AJ, Q9, J9).

3-betting here certainly isn't wrong. But, you shouldn't be doing it to protect your hand. There are no hands to protect it from (assuming small flush draws won't fold). You shouldn't be worrying about somebody with 99 or 44 drawing to a 2-outer in a pot with only 13 small bets in it (after you call two cold). Remember, you want your opponents to call when they don't have the proper pot odds to do so. On the K,T,3 flop, 3-betting would be far better because you do want them to fold rather than taking off a card with a gut-shot draw for one small bet getting at least 13:1.

Don't I want to charge anyone drawing to the flush

Sure. Isn't that what gonores did? Cold-calling and then raising the turn is the most effective way to charge the draws if you are reasonably certain the player on your right will bet the turn.

Or how about anyone with top or middle pair?

Anybody with top or middle pair is drawing very, very slim. You don't want to put 3-bet pressure on somebody holding K4s or 98o. These are the hands you want to pay you off.

If this flop had no flush draw on it, I would consider smooth-calling the turn as well.

Seriously, what hands do you want to fold out of this hand on the flop besides the flush draws?

[AceHigh]

"As soon as I hit the call button I’m kicking myself…hard."

You have a problem on the flop, you are a huge favorite and you want as much money to go in the pot on each street as possible. If you reraise on the button, seems you are going to drive out a lot of the players who might pay you off later. So, unless you think others will incorrectly put you on a flush draw, or some other hand, and call your 3-bet, I think smooth calling is preferable.

Turn is perfect.

Raise the river. Small possibility SB has something like 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif or 88.

[Bob T.]

With all of those callers in front of you, calling the flop and raising the turn, is a reasonable play. it probably didn't matter much to this pot.

I think because of your passive action on the flop, the true strength of your hand is hidden, and I think not raising the river is a bad play. If you raise, and get three bet, then you can slow down, although with a four bet cap, I would consider taking the last bet on the river.

[RockLobster]

This hand is very specific. On a K,8,3 flop, there are no straight draws- not even a gut-shot draw to be concerned with. If the flop were K,T,3, then there are lots of reasonable gut-shot draws to be concerned with (AQ, AJ, Q9, J9).

Makes sense to me.

3-betting here certainly isn't wrong.

I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that. After reading your post, I understand better why you'd want to wait until the turn. I was apparantly showing too much respect to the flush draw.

Seriously, what hands do you want to fold out of this hand on the flop besides the flush draws?

Flush draws. Oh, BESIDES the flush draws? Well, none.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[gonores]

SB turned over 89o for a turned two pair
MP mucks KJs
I take down the pot with my trip 3s.

Here's what bothered me so much about my calling of two cold on the flop. The first bet on the flop came from the first to act and was raised by the cutoff. A 3bet from me would make the three other players face $4 to get to the turn, with two chips already in front of them. On the other hand, waiting for the turn would normally result in everyone checking to the raiser (CO) and then I raise, and now everyone is facing two BB cold. Fortunately, SB improved and bet out, making my raise quite profitable. I figured flush draws were staying to the rivers, but I wanted to get the max out the players with middle pair or top pair, and I think I could extract more with the flop 3bet, making the draws call $4 on the flop and presumably $4 more on the turn instead of letting them call $2 on the flop and presumably $8 on the turn.

As far as the river goes, I agree with the common sentiment of most of the replies. Two pair makes a lot of sense, and a raise was in order. I really don't like the way I played this hand, and I think I lucked out with the SB improving but not passing me.

[JTG51]

I haven't read the other responses or the results yet, I hope I'm not being too redundant.

Last things first, I think not raising the river was mistake. The stop and go betting pattern your opponent used can be a bit confusing though. His calling the flop raise then betting the turn looks like a good K to me, maybe KQ, and he doesn't want to give a free card to a possible flush draw. When you raise the turn and he bets the river anyway, 2 pair is a lot more likely. He was a blind, so K5 is pretty reasonable.

I don't think your call on the flop is a huge mistake. Your opponents won't be suspicous, they will probably put you on a flush draw so you gain a lot of deception value. Plus, you can really, really punish draws with a double turn bet. I'd 3-bet the flop most of the time, but the way you played it is a good alternative once in a while.

[JTG51]

Rock, I think the key here is that flush draws aren't going to fold until the river, no matter when or how much you raise. Notice that you charge your opponents double by raising the turn instead of the flop. That of course assumes that they don't hit their flush on the turn. If the flush does hit on the turn and an opponent suddenly comes to life, you may be able to save a bet by not raising the flop.

That said, I'd 3-bet the flop most of the time because it fits with my overall game plan. I'd also sometimes 3-bet a variety of other hands in that spot, including the nut flush draw and KQ. Calling and raising the turn is a good alternative that can add some deception to your overall game though.

[AceHigh]

"Fortunately, SB improved and bet out, making my raise quite profitable."

Yes, but by smooth calling you gave the SB or someone else a chance to improve to a second best hand. It's a balancing act. I don't think it that big a deal actually. The decision is probably pretty close.

The big mistake in this hand is you didn't raise on the river.

[RockLobster]

Hey Jeff--

I think the key here is that flush draws aren't going to fold until the river, no matter when or how much you raise.

I hadn't really considered that.

That said, I'd 3-bet the flop most of the time because it fits with my overall game plan.

Mine, too, apparantly /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif.

This makes sense, thanks.