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10-10-2005, 04:14 AM
Hand 1

Elk Grove Single Table Tournament, 9 Oct 2005 10:55 PM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: lango ($1,290 in chips)
Seat 2: zurks ($2,230 in chips)
Seat 3: ..ALL-IN ($770 in chips)
Seat 4: six_nine ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 5: BeBack ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO [QD,QC] ($1,720 in chips)
Seat 7: jimmyjam29 ($1,650 in chips)
Seat 8: Maestro4854 ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 9: checkurself ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 10: ISRiminshok ($1,470 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
lango posts blind ($10), zurks posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
..ALL-IN folds, six_nine folds, BeBack folds, HERO bets $70, jimmyjam29 calls $70, Maestro4854 folds, checkurself folds, ISRiminshok folds, lango folds, zurks calls $50.

FLOP
zurks checks, HERO checks, jimmyjam29 bets $125, zurks folds, [b]HERO folds.
SHOWDOWN
jimmyjam29 wins $345.
SUMMARY
Dealer: ISRiminshok
Pot: $345
lango, loses $10
zurks, loses $70
..ALL-IN, loses $0
six_nine, loses $0
BeBack, loses $0
wzeller, loses $70
jimmyjam29, bets $195, collects $345, net $150
Maestro4854, loses $0
checkurself, loses $0
ISRiminshok, loses $0

Is this too weak/tight? If this pot were heads up, I would put in a continuation bet here, but putting any more chips felt like spewing to me. Raise more preflop to get it heads up?

Hand 2

No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money), hand #1,347,246,389
Livermore Single Table Tournament, 9 Oct 2005 10:57 PM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: HERO [AD,AS] ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 2: bronteflyers ($1,340 in chips)
Seat 3: RichCoder ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: will60 ($2,280 in chips)
Seat 5: go_CSU ($840 in chips)
Seat 6: kennyjams ($1,580 in chips)
Seat 7: Darek-PN ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 8: childprodigy ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 9: silva19 ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 10: photoinla ($1,500 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Darek-PN posts blind ($10), childprodigy posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
silva19 folds, photoinla folds, HERO bets $80, bronteflyers folds, RichCoder folds, will60 folds, go_CSU calls $80, kennyjams folds, Darek-PN folds, childprodigy folds.

FLOP
[b]HERO bets $200, go_CSU folds.

SHOWDOWN
HERO wins $390.
SUMMARY
Dealer: kennyjams
Pot: $390
HERO, bets $280, collects $390, net $110
bronteflyers, loses $0
RichCoder, loses $0
will60, loses $0
go_CSU, loses $80
kennyjams, loses $0
Darek-PN, loses $10
childprodigy, loses $20
silva19, loses $0
photoinla, loses $0

I can't slowplay with this board, right? I would obviously call a push.


Hand 3
eat 1: midas xx ($1,230 in chips)
Seat 2: d33goalie2 ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 3: foofdogg ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 4: ttlamb92 ($1,420 in chips)
Seat 5: chuhching1 ($1,340 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($1,310 in chips)
Seat 7: BradleyJolly ($2,255 in chips)
Seat 8: JiggyMike ($1,380 in chips)
Seat 9: blackdaisy ($1,665 in chips)
Seat 10: goldfish1002 ($1,460 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
midas xx posts blind ($15), d33goalie2 posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
foofdogg folds, ttlamb92 folds, chuhching1 calls $30, HERO bets $125, BradleyJolly folds, JiggyMike folds, blackdaisy folds, goldfish1002 folds, midas xx folds, d33goalie2 calls $95, chuhching1 folds.

FLOP
d33goalie2 checks, [b]HERO bets $175, d33goalie2 calls $175.

TURN
d33goalie2 checks, [b]HERO checks.

RIVER
d33goalie2 checks, [b]HERO bets $350, d33goalie2 folds.

SHOWDOWN
HERO wins $995.
SUMMARY
Dealer: goldfish1002
Pot: $995
midas xx, loses $15
d33goalie2, loses $300
foofdogg, loses $0
ttlamb92, loses $0
chuhching1, loses $30
HERO, bets $650, collects $995, net $345
BradleyJolly, loses $0
JiggyMike, loses $0
blackdaisy, loses $0
goldfish1002, loses $0

I'm curious on all aspects of this hand. How do you like the raise preflop? Betting the flop? Checking the turn? The amount I bet on the river when I made the second nuts?

Hand 4

Seat 1: HERO [9S,9D] ($1,620 in chips)
Seat 2: Big Double D ($1,215 in chips)
Seat 3: bruhaha ($1,400 in chips)
Seat 4: Flavio408 ($3,515 in chips)
Seat 6: cajun007 ($1,985 in chips)
Seat 8: gmajor723 ($1,260 in chips)
Seat 9: lukeeggum ($2,180 in chips)
Seat 10: Aylasharon ($1,825 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Flavio408 posts blind ($15), cajun007 posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
gmajor723 folds, lukeeggum folds, Aylasharon folds, HERO bets $125, Big Double D folds, bruhaha folds, Flavio408 bets $205, cajun007 calls $190, HERO calls $95.

FLOP
Flavio408 checks, cajun007 bets $200, [b]HERO folds, Flavio408 folds.

SHOWDOWN
cajun007 wins $860.
SUMMARY
Dealer: bruhaha
Pot: $860
HERO, loses $220
Big Double D, loses $0
bruhaha, loses $0
Flavio408, loses $220
cajun007, bets $420, collects $860, net $440
gmajor723, loses $0
lukeeggum, loses $0
Aylasharon, loses $0

I was somewhat lost after the miniraise preflop, but I was basically resolved to play the hand for set value after that point as I hadn't seen villian get too out of line to that point. Moreover, I had a rockish image at the table, so he probably gives me credit for a fairly big hand when I raised preflop. Is my line o.k. here?

Hand 5

Galveston Single Table Tournament, 10 Oct 2005 12:26 AM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: HERO [2D,2S] ($1,400 in chips)
Seat 2: Big Double D ($1,065 in chips)
Seat 3: bruhaha ($1,400 in chips)
Seat 4: Flavio408 ($3,295 in chips)
Seat 6: cajun007 ($2,785 in chips)
Seat 8: gmajor723 ($1,280 in chips)
Seat 9: lukeeggum ($2,105 in chips)
Seat 10: Aylasharon ($1,670 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Aylasharon posts blind ($25), HERO posts blind ($50).

PRE-FLOP
Big Double D folds, bruhaha folds, Flavio408 folds, cajun007 folds, gmajor723 folds, lukeeggum folds, Aylasharon calls $25, HERO checks.

FLOP
Aylasharon checks, [b]HERO bets $100, Aylasharon calls $100.

TURN
Aylasharon checks, HERO checks.

RIVER [board cards KD,3S,4H,10S,7D ]
Aylasharon checks, HERO checks.

SHOWDOWN
Aylasharon shows [ AD,9H ]
HERO shows [ 2D,2S ]
HERO wins $300.
SUMMARY
Dealer: lukeeggum
Pot: $300
HERO, bets $150, collects $300, net $150
Big Double D, loses $0
bruhaha, loses $0
Flavio408, loses $0
cajun007, loses $0
gmajor723, loses $0
lukeeggum, loses $0
Aylasharon, loses $150


Is it worth taking a stab at this pot? Villian was involved in many hands preflop and tended to overplay them, but was not overly aggressive postflop. Should I have bet again on the turn to fold out a middle pair? My plan was to check-fold after getting called, as I'm obviously only beating a bluff.

[b]Hand 6

Seat 1: atthecat ($1,380 in chips)
Seat 2: HERO [JC,JH] ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 3: Mimilinda1 ($4,020 in chips)
Seat 4: Inthacup ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 5: BrandonVan ($1,720 in chips)
Seat 7: djroz ($1,460 in chips)
Seat 8: jamisonm6 ($1,590 in chips)
Seat 9: khalwat ($360 in chips)
Seat 10: Griffey x ($1,500 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
djroz posts blind ($10), jamisonm6 posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
khalwat folds, Griffey x calls $20, atthecat folds, HERO bets $80, Mimilinda1 folds, Inthacup folds, BrandonVan folds, djroz folds, jamisonm6 folds, Griffey x calls $60.

FLOP
Griffey x checks, [b]HERO bets $100, Griffey x calls $100.

TURN
Griffey x checks, [b]HERO bets $200, Griffey x folds.

His check-call on the flop seemed weak to me, and I put him on a big ace (AK or AJ) or smaller pocket pair, possibly a flush draw. My turn bet was for value and to price out draws. Good line?


Hand 7

Seat 1: G_Blades ($2,830 in chips)
Seat 2: Swampass7 ($1,270 in chips)
Seat 3: Randall37 ($2,885 in chips)
Seat 4: Larry5000 ($1,040 in chips)
Seat 5: TheNuts121 ($960 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO [8C,8S] ($1,655 in chips)
Seat 7: nipsey2004 ($900 in chips)
Seat 8: scars-4-life ($590 in chips)
Seat 10: trollok999 ($2,870 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Randall37 posts blind ($25), Larry5000 posts blind ($50).

PRE-FLOP
TheNuts121 calls $50, HERO calls $50, nipsey2004 folds, scars-4-life folds, trollok999 folds, G_Blades calls $50, Swampass7 folds, Randall37 calls $25, Larry5000 checks.

FLOP
Randall37 checks, Larry5000 checks, TheNuts121 checks, [b]HERO checks, G_Blades checks.

TURN
Randall37 checks, Larry5000 checks, TheNuts121 checks, [b]HERO bets $300, G_Blades calls $300, Randall37 folds, Larry5000 folds, TheNuts121 folds.

RIVER
[b]HERO bets $350, G_Blades calls $350.

SHOWDOWN
HERO shows [ 8C,8S ]
G_Blades mucks cards [ 10C,8H ]
HERO wins $1,550.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Swampass7
Pot: $1,550
G_Blades, loses $700
Swampass7, loses $0
Randall37, loses $50
Larry5000, loses $50
TheNuts121, loses $50
HERO, bets $700, collects $1,550, net $850
nipsey2004, loses $0
scars-4-life, loses $0
trollok999, loses $0

Does anyone raise preflop with this hand? I was obviously prepared to check/fold the flop, but then cought the set on the turn and bet it for value. If a scare card came on the river or I was raised big I was ready to fold. River bet was a value/blocking bet making it hard to represent the runner runner flush which I was worried he might have had. Should I have bet more?

Hand 8

Oxnard Single Table Tournament, 10 Oct 2005 01:02 AM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: atthecat ($1,360 in chips)
Seat 2: HERO [10C,10D] ($1,710 in chips)
Seat 3: Mimilinda1 ($5,155 in chips)
Seat 4: Inthacup ($995 in chips)
Seat 5: BrandonVan ($1,720 in chips)
Seat 7: djroz ($1,000 in chips)
Seat 8: jamisonm6 ($1,560 in chips)
Seat 9: khalwat ($330 in chips)
Seat 10: Griffey x ($1,170 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
atthecat posts blind ($10), HERO posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
Mimilinda1 calls $20, Inthacup folds, BrandonVan bets $60, djroz folds, jamisonm6 folds, khalwat folds, Griffey x calls $60, atthecat folds, HERO calls $40, Mimilinda1 calls $40.

FLOP
[b]HERO checks, Mimilinda1 checks, BrandonVan bets $100, Griffey x folds, HERO bets $275, Mimilinda1 folds, BrandonVan folds.

SHOWDOWN
HERO wins $625.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Griffey x
Pot: $625
atthecat, loses $10
HERO, bets $335, collects $625, net $290
Mimilinda1, loses $60
Inthacup, loses $0
BrandonVan, loses $160
djroz, loses $0
jamisonm6, loses $0
khalwat, loses $0
Griffey x, loses $60

Does anyone else checkraise this flop? Reraise preflop? I thought betting into the raiser might just get a call and I wanted to take the pot after the flop. I planned to fold to a push. Too weak?

Hand 9
No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money), hand #1,347,578,298
Vienna Single Table Tournament, 10 Oct 2005 01:08 AM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: G_Blades ($595 in chips)
Seat 2: Swampass7 ($2,745 in chips)
Seat 3: Randall37 ($3,135 in chips)
Seat 4: Larry5000 ($990 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($3,825 in chips)
Seat 7: nipsey2004 ($250 in chips)
Seat 8: scars-4-life ($690 in chips)
Seat 10: trollok999 ($2,770 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
nipsey2004 posts blind ($50), scars-4-life posts blind ($100).

PRE-FLOP
trollok999 folds, G_Blades folds, Swampass7 folds, Randall37 bets $325, Larry5000 folds, HERO calls $325, nipsey2004 folds, scars-4-life bets $590 and is all-in, Randall37 bets $2,810 and is all-in, HERO folds.

FLOP [board cards 7D,JS,3C ]


TURN [board cards 7D,JS,3C,JD ]


RIVER [board cards 7D,JS,3C,JD,2C ]


SHOWDOWN
Randall37 shows [ QS,AD ]
scars-4-life shows [ 6H,AC ]
Randall37 wins $2,445, Randall37 wins $1,755.
SUMMARY
Dealer: HERO
Pot: $4,200
G_Blades, loses $0
Swampass7, loses $0
Randall37, bets $3,135, collects $4,200, net $1,065
Larry5000, loses $0
HERO, loses $325
nipsey2004, loses $50
scars-4-life, loses $690
trollok999, loses $0

I was fairly sure Randall37 was raising to isolate with a big ace here, but I was still worried about a hand like JJ. If I called and lost, I would be crippled, and I was stealing the blinds pretty much at will.... Do you guys call here? Do you see people reraising with AA-JJ enough to make this fold correct? I feel like this fold was on the weak-tight side, but I also thought there were safer spots to put my stack in the middle.

10-10-2005, 05:35 AM
Are these hands all standard/boring, or do the hand histories suck so bad that nobody can bear reading them to respond? I'm really curious about playing mid/high pocket pairs in early levels of STTs. When do pocket pairs stop being for set value and start having independent value? How often should you take a stab at the pot with 2 overs? Three overs? An ace on the flop and two callers in a raised pot OOP? How does the amount of limpers affect playing a middle pocket pair from the blinds? Etc. etc. I would appreciate any thoughts on any lines I took. As I'm relatively new to this forum, you'll have to excuse me if I'm posting hands of the sort that have been posted 100 times before. If that is the case, at least give me a link pointing the way.... As for the hand histories, the converter doesn't work for this format. Thanks in advance.

Insty
10-10-2005, 06:12 AM
Some tips:

Post one hand per thread. Don't post 10 threads at once.
Put the name of the site in the subject or at least let us know it's not party.
Buyin in the subject - Good!

That said..

I read the first 3 and didn't like your line in any of them.


Stop:
a) asking people to push you off pots.
b) asking people to outdraw you.

Insty
10-10-2005, 09:27 AM
I thought you deserved a decent answer, and I had some procrastinating to do, so here you go.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
Seat 6: HERO [QD,QC] ($1,720 in chips)

Is this too weak/tight? If this pot were heads up, I would put in a continuation bet here, but putting any more chips felt like spewing to me. Raise more preflop to get it heads up?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You raised preflop, you have to at least represent the Ace, if you get called you dont need to put any more chips in, but you have to bet the flop.

What is the point of raising more to get it heads up?

[ QUOTE ]


Hand 2

Seat 1: HERO [AD,AS] ($1,500 in chips)

I can't slowplay with this board, right? I would obviously call a push.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to bet here, but you're saying "I dont have a made flush.". You're lucky he didnt have any hearts. What hands do you think are pushing here? And why is calling obvious?

[ QUOTE ]



Hand 3
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($1,310 in chips)

I'm curious on all aspects of this hand. How do you like the raise preflop? Betting the flop? Checking the turn? The amount I bet on the river when I made the second nuts?



[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like the preflop raise.
Betting the flop was good.
Checking the turn was bad. why give a donkey with 54 a free card?
The river bet was obviously too big - it wasn't called. Did you think it would be?


[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4
Seat 1: HERO [9S,9D] ($1,620 in chips)

I was somewhat lost after the miniraise preflop, but I was basically resolved to play the hand for set value after that point as I hadn't seen villian get too out of line to that point. Moreover, I had a rockish image at the table, so he probably gives me credit for a fairly big hand when I raised preflop. Is my line o.k. here?


[/ QUOTE ]
preflop minraise either means he has a better hand than you or he is an idiot, you should know which. Why does he think you are a rock?
Your line is fine apart from the preflop raise.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 5
Seat 1: HERO [2D,2S] ($1,400 in chips)

Is it worth taking a stab at this pot? Villian was involved in many hands preflop and tended to overplay them, but was not overly aggressive postflop. Should I have bet again on the turn to fold out a middle pair? My plan was to check-fold after getting called, as I'm obviously only beating a bluff.


[/ QUOTE ]
The pot stab looks fine. I dont think you can confidently bet enough to make this guy fold.
But I probably would have bet again on the turn and checked the river.
Just be glad he was too feeble to actually bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 6
Seat 2: HERO [JC,JH] ($1,500 in chips)

His check-call on the flop seemed weak to me, and I put him on a big ace (AK or AJ) or smaller pocket pair, possibly a flush draw. My turn bet was for value and to price out draws. Good line?


[/ QUOTE ]
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? What evidence do you have for the range you're putting him on?
I probably would have bet a little more on both the flop and the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 7
Seat 6: HERO [8C,8S] ($1,655 in chips)

Does anyone raise preflop with this hand? I was obviously prepared to check/fold the flop, but then cought the set on the turn and bet it for value. If a scare card came on the river or I was raised big I was ready to fold. River bet was a value/blocking bet making it hard to represent the runner runner flush which I was worried he might have had. Should I have bet more?


[/ QUOTE ]
No. I like your line in this hand.
What do you think bet for value means? you seem to say it a lot.
Worrying about runner runner flush is looking for monsters under the bed.
Why aren't you worried about KJ or J9 both of which could have played the flop/turn like this.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 8
Seat 2: HERO [10C,10D] ($1,710 in chips)

Does anyone else checkraise this flop? Reraise preflop? I thought betting into the raiser might just get a call and I wanted to take the pot after the flop. I planned to fold to a push. Too weak?


[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, Nope, fold preflop.
The rest is pure FPS.
Planning to fold to a push is the only good thing about this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 9
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($3,825 in chips)

I was fairly sure Randall37 was raising to isolate with a big ace here, but I was still worried about a hand like JJ. If I called and lost, I would be crippled, and I was stealing the blinds pretty much at will.... Do you guys call here? Do you see people reraising with AA-JJ enough to make this fold correct? I feel like this fold was on the weak-tight side, but I also thought there were safer spots to put my stack in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop, before throwing way 375. For most of the reasons you already stated.
You have zero reason to be involved in any pot with he other big stack. Particularly with such a weak holding.


What site are these from?


Also you might like to spend some time reading previous articles from this forum. Most of this stuff is well covered in the arcbives, you just have to look for it.

10-10-2005, 02:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I thought you deserved a decent answer, and I had some procrastinating to do, so here you go.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
Seat 6: HERO [QD,QC] ($1,720 in chips)

Is this too weak/tight? If this pot were heads up, I would put in a continuation bet here, but putting any more chips felt like spewing to me. Raise more preflop to get it heads up?


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes. You raised preflop, you have to at least represent the Ace, if you get called you dont need to put any more chips in, but you have to bet the flop.

What is the point of raising more to get it heads up?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


The point of raising more preflop to get it heads up is to lower the likelihood that Ax called, and make it more likely that a continuation bet will work. This is covered in HoH, where he also talks about not always making continuation bets into 2 or more people, especially when you know they call too much (which is the case here).
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

Seat 1: HERO [AD,AS] ($1,500 in chips)

I can't slowplay with this board, right? I would obviously call a push.

[ QUOTE ]


I think you have to bet here, but you're saying "I dont have a made flush.". You're lucky he didnt have any hearts. What hands do you think are pushing here? And why is calling obvious?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any Ah, 2 pair, lower set or even horribly played OESD is pushing here. I'm obviously a huge favorite against the first three holdings and I have a 30% chance of redrawing to the full house against the fourth. This is why I think it would be obvious to call a push here.

[ QUOTE ]



Hand 3
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($1,310 in chips)

I'm curious on all aspects of this hand. How do you like the raise preflop? Betting the flop? Checking the turn? The amount I bet on the river when I made the second nuts?

[ QUOTE ]

I dont like the preflop raise.
Betting the flop was good.
Checking the turn was bad. why give a donkey with 54 a free card?
The river bet was obviously too big - it wasn't called. Did you think it would be?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


What hand do you need to raise preflop from the blinds at a table where there are frequently 4+ limpers? 10s are the 5th strongest preflop holding, but only 70% of flops won't include an overcard which makes post-flop play with them difficult. It's also very unlikely that someone limped a bigger pocket pair than mine, and if they did I might as well find out now. Also, the fact that a bet isn't called doesn't mean it's too big. I thought villian in this hand might have whiffed a turn checkraise with a hand he liked a lot. If I bet 200 instead of 350, I have to be called almost twice as often (7/4ths of the time) to make the bigger bet wrong. It was under the size of the pot, and if the villain was slowplaying or had anything reasonable which s/he would call 200 with, I thought they might also call 350. Although I was wrong in this instance, I don't think this is wrong thinking.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4
Seat 1: HERO [9S,9D] ($1,620 in chips)

I was somewhat lost after the miniraise preflop, but I was basically resolved to play the hand for set value after that point as I hadn't seen villian get too out of line to that point. Moreover, I had a rockish image at the table, so he probably gives me credit for a fairly big hand when I raised preflop. Is my line o.k. here?
[ QUOTE ]

preflop minraise either means he has a better hand than you or he is an idiot, you should know which. Why does he think you are a rock?
Your line is fine apart from the preflop raise.



[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

He thinks I'm a rock because I don't play many hands early. He gave me no reason to think he was an idiot until this hand, so I thought he had a bigger hand. Regarding raising 9s preflop, see my comment on 10s above.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 6
Seat 2: HERO [JC,JH] ($1,500 in chips)

His check-call on the flop seemed weak to me, and I put him on a big ace (AK or AJ) or smaller pocket pair, possibly a flush draw. My turn bet was for value and to price out draws. Good line?

[ QUOTE ]

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? What evidence do you have for the range you're putting him on?
I probably would have bet a little more on both the flop and the turn.



[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I making what up? How much to bet? The range to put someone on when they check/call a queen high flop and check the turn? Betting for value is betting when I think I have the best hand, and when I think I will be called by a worse hand. Why bet more than the size of the pot?

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 7
Seat 6: HERO [8C,8S] ($1,655 in chips)

Does anyone raise preflop with this hand? I was obviously prepared to check/fold the flop, but then cought the set on the turn and bet it for value. If a scare card came on the river or I was raised big I was ready to fold. River bet was a value/blocking bet making it hard to represent the runner runner flush which I was worried he might have had. Should I have bet more?

[ QUOTE ]

No. I like your line in this hand.
What do you think bet for value means? you seem to say it a lot.
Worrying about runner runner flush is looking for monsters under the bed.
Why aren't you worried about KJ or J9 both of which could have played the flop/turn like this.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


When someone check/calls a large bet in a multiway hand when the 2nd card of a suit hits, I think a flush draw is a reasonable assumption. "Betting for value" is betting to get paid off by worse hands, as opposed to bluffing, betting for information or making a blocking bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 8
Seat 2: HERO [10C,10D] ($1,710 in chips)

Does anyone else checkraise this flop? Reraise preflop? I thought betting into the raiser might just get a call and I wanted to take the pot after the flop. I planned to fold to a push. Too weak?
[ QUOTE ]

Nope, Nope, fold preflop.
The rest is pure FPS.
Planning to fold to a push is the only good thing about this hand.



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You fold to a 3BB early position raise when you have 10s? Why? Also, don't you agree that a checkraise out of position represents more strength than a lead bet, especially against someone whom I've seen make a lot of continuation bets?
If not, when do you think it's appropriate to checkraise?

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Hand 9
Seat 6: HERO [10S,10C] ($3,825 in chips)

I was fairly sure Randall37 was raising to isolate with a big ace here, but I was still worried about a hand like JJ. If I called and lost, I would be crippled, and I was stealing the blinds pretty much at will.... Do you guys call here? Do you see people reraising with AA-JJ enough to make this fold correct? I feel like this fold was on the weak-tight side, but I also thought there were safer spots to put my stack in the middle.
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Fold preflop, before throwing way 375. For most of the reasons you already stated.
You have zero reason to be involved in any pot with he other big stack. Particularly with such a weak holding.


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I agree that calling would have been bad here, but I don't agree that I should fold to a 3BB raise with 10s. I thought the shortstack BB might easily push and we could check the hand down regardless of the board.


Thanks a lot for taking the time to read through these hands. I've been beating the game at 51% ITM and 75% ROI after the first 50 20+2 SnGs for which I've kepts stats (I know the same size is too small to draw conclusions from, but it's a positive trend) and I wanted to see whether I was playing pocket pairs in a standard way at different blind levels, or whether my success with them (and generally) was just running good.

Insty
10-10-2005, 04:50 PM
Based on your responeses, you seem to be a lot better than your initial questions lead me to believe. It seems you already know all the answers.
Also a lot of your responses include additional reads that you didn't give in the initial questions.
Am I right in assuming you single table?


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Yes. You raised preflop, you have to at least represent the Ace, if you get called you dont need to put any more chips in, but you have to bet the flop.

What is the point of raising more to get it heads up?


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The point of raising more preflop to get it heads up is to lower the likelihood that Ax called, and make it more likely that a continuation bet will work. This is covered in HoH, where he also talks about not always making continuation bets into 2 or more people, especially when you know they call too much (which is the case here).


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When they call too much the likelyhood that Ax called preflop is increased. None of the low limit action monkeys are folding an Ace ever. I probably wouldn't try a continuation bet into more than 2 people, but I think the fact that you were the first raiser preflop and got 2 flat calls from loose opponents means you have to at least have a stab.

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I think you have to bet here, but you're saying "I dont have a made flush.". You're lucky he didnt have any hearts. What hands do you think are pushing here? And why is calling obvious?


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I think any Ah, 2 pair, lower set or even horribly played OESD is pushing here. I'm obviously a huge favorite against the first three holdings and I have a 30% chance of redrawing to the full house against the fourth. This is why I think it would be obvious to call a push here.


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You're also going broke against a made flush for what? 500 chips? Fine in a cash game, but when your tournament is on the line are you sure you want to take the chance?


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I dont like the preflop raise.
Betting the flop was good.
Checking the turn was bad. why give a donkey with 54 a free card?
The river bet was obviously too big - it wasn't called. Did you think it would be?


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What hand do you need to raise preflop from the blinds at a table where there are frequently 4+ limpers?


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More new information. Still probably Aces or Kings, in my experience loose limpers just don't fold often enough.
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10s are the 5th strongest preflop holding, but only 70% of flops won't include an overcard which makes post-flop play with them difficult. It's also very unlikely that someone limped a bigger pocket pair than mine, and if they did I might as well find out now.


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You seem to me to be making a good argument for folding 10's.
So you find out who has a bigger pair, and you find that you're playing a huge pot against n limpers who are in for a penny in for a pound with their Kx/Qx/Jx.

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Also, the fact that a bet isn't called doesn't mean it's too big. I thought villian in this hand might have whiffed a turn checkraise with a hand he liked a lot. If I bet 200 instead of 350, I have to be called almost twice as often (7/4ths of the time) to make the bigger bet wrong. It was under the size of the pot, and if the villain was slowplaying or had anything reasonable which s/he would call 200 with, I thought they might also call 350. Although I was wrong in this instance, I don't think this is wrong thinking.


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I agree.

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Hand 4
He thinks I'm a rock because I don't play many hands early. He gave me no reason to think he was an idiot until this hand, so I thought he had a bigger hand. Regarding raising 9s preflop, see my comment on 10s above.


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YOU think you're a rock because you don't play many hands early. He thinks you're bluffing with 98o because that's what he would do.
I think we have to agree to disagree on medium pocket pairs.

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Hand 6
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I probably would have bet a little more on both the flop and the turn.


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Why bet more than the size of the pot?


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I thought I worked out you only bet about half the pot, I would have gone for 3/4 or so.
If that's what you did, then I agree and I probably just added up the wrong hand.

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Hand 8
You fold to a 3BB early position raise when you have 10s? Why? Also, don't you agree that a checkraise out of position represents more strength than a lead bet, especially against someone whom I've seen make a lot of continuation bets?
If not, when do you think it's appropriate to checkraise?


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Yes.
10's suck, you're out of position, it's a multiway pot, you've got a decent stack, the blinds are still low, why even bother? You're not guaranteed to stack anyone if you hit your set. I think plays like this are a long term losing proposition.
It's appropriate to checkraise when you can call a reraise all in. Or when you the guy to your left will bet, cause everyone else to fold and then fold himself to your checkraise, but you'd need some reads for that.
Another situation where you are adding reads you should have stated in your initial post.

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Hand 9
I agree that calling would have been bad here, but I don't agree that I should fold to a 3BB raise with 10s. I thought the shortstack BB might easily push and we could check the hand down regardless of the board.


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Checking the hand down is often a bad move.


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Thanks a lot for taking the time to read through these hands. I've been beating the game at 51% ITM and 75% ROI after the first 50 20+2 SnGs for which I've kepts stats (I know the same size is too small to draw conclusions from, but it's a positive trend) and I wanted to see whether I was playing pocket pairs in a standard way at different blind levels, or whether my success with them (and generally) was just running good.

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Yes and Yes. Make the most of it. Because it really sucks when this stuff stops working.
You're keeping stats for the games you lose too right?

You wanted comments, my comment is that I think you are/will be bleeding chips with your mid pocket pairs.

But hey, if it gets you 75% ROI keep it up!

10-10-2005, 06:04 PM
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Based on your responeses, you seem to be a lot better than your initial questions lead me to believe. It seems you already know all the answers.
Also a lot of your responses include additional reads that you didn't give in the initial questions.
Am I right in assuming you single table?

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Sorry to sound like a know-it-all. I get a bit defensive at times... I play 2 tables and have been fooling around with 3 to see how it affects my reads/winrate. Also, regarding reads, I suppose I should include them with my initial responses, but it was already getting unmanagably long and, well, I didn't. I wish some other players would respond about folding hands like 10s in the CO for a 3bb raise.... I just can't believe this is the standard line.


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You're keeping stats for the games you lose too right?


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Of course....

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You wanted comments, my comment is that I think you are/will be bleeding chips with your mid pocket pairs.
But hey, if it gets you 75% ROI keep it up!

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I did want your comments, and I really appreciate this discussion. I will reevaluate how I play medium pocket pairs during early levels. Thanks again.

10-10-2005, 06:53 PM
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I wish some other players would respond about folding hands like 10s in the CO for a 3bb raise.... I just can't believe this is the standard line.

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Most of the players here are unimaginably conservative. That's fair enough; I imagine it's difficult to play tricky hands while 8 tabling against a bunch of random-click bots. /images/graemlins/smile.gif If you are folding tens because you don't get enough good flops then you should fold AKo also.

I generally like your lines.

Insty
10-12-2005, 06:05 PM
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Most of the players here are unimaginably conservative. That's fair enough; I imagine it's difficult to play tricky hands while 8 tabling against a bunch of random-click bots.


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This is true.

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If you are folding tens because you don't get enough good flops then you should fold AKo also.


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This is false.