Dumping JJ preflop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

catlover

10-10-2005, 03:15 AM

Good, bad, or ugly?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($2522)
UTG ($1000)
Button ($893)
SB ($3067.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Button raises to $30, SB raises to $135, [i], hero folds.

chuddo

10-10-2005, 03:17 AM

call. hope button doesn't get it in there. flop a J. lead into field.

Garland

10-10-2005, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good, bad, or ugly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reads?

At the very least with no reads, your stacks are both deep enough. Why don't you call the $105 and gamble?

Garland

catlover

10-10-2005, 03:22 AM

You mean the $125?

Well, I don't know if my reasoning was right or wrong, but I felt there was a good chance I was beat, and also I was out of position.

Lucky

10-10-2005, 03:24 AM

you can win 20 times what you'll call, and it is four handed. Unless he's a nit who only plays full games usually, you probably want to play.

The Ocho

10-10-2005, 03:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I felt there was a good chance I was beat

[/ QUOTE ]

so? that's what the flop and beyond are for.

[ QUOTE ]
I was out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

not against the guy who really matters.

Garland

10-10-2005, 03:25 AM

Sorry, I misread the action. I thought you were the initial raiser and hand to call the re-raise to $135. Yeah, I'd still call here and gamble. Original raiser is likely to fold most hands and you'll be in position to stack should a J hit.

Garland

AZK

10-10-2005, 03:30 AM

Are you still beat when you flop a jack? How do you not make this call with your stacks?

Maulik

10-10-2005, 03:30 AM

you can muck preflop if you only options are push/fold!

certainly a call is in order, if its re-raised then you can fold, being squeezed sucks, but I would like to know your reasoning for mucking PF.

flawless_victory

10-10-2005, 03:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you still beat when you flop a jack? How do you not make this call with your stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]hes not closing the action and the button is short... coldcalling here planning to play for a set is pretty bad dog. its not like a Jxx = auto double up.
are you calling here w/ 22? that woyuld be pretty bad.

AZK

10-10-2005, 03:43 AM

my bad, read it like garland, thought he opened...

IHateCats

10-10-2005, 04:21 AM

This is largely dependent upon how tight/aggro the button is. If he is tight and very aggressive and likely to push back with 10-10 or better, or AQ or better you're better off not getting stuck between the two, but if his button raising hand range is much larger, which presumably it is for a 4 handed game on the button like this, he'll very likely fold or possibly just call if you call as well though his drawing odds will suck with his stack size vs pot size if he's inclined to do that in general. Against most players that are not overly aggressive in this situation you're easily getting odds to call & draw for a set vs the SB without too much risk of being reraised by the button.

durrrr

10-10-2005, 05:52 AM

reads/names of villains? 98%+ of the time i play here.

xorbie

10-10-2005, 05:58 AM

To be honest, I don't think you should worry all *that* much about button being in the hand. Think about it this way. Let's say if you knew 100% that button would fold, you're call would have an EV of X. Now if button pushes, you end up wasting $125. So the % of the time that button pushes times $125 is what you end losing.

If this is a standard high limit 4 handed game, button should be opening with a wide range of hands in this position, say 15-20% (reads would be nice in this regard, I've played with some people who open limp on the button a ton). So of the times he open raises, he has aces or kings only 5% or so. Meaning 5% of $125 or $19 is what you "lose" by calling when you end up not seeing a flop.

So basically, if you can call a SB raise to $144 knowing button will fold (which you can), you can call this $125. And that doesn't even take into account that button might end up calling as well, and you end up winning more if you do spike a J.

Ulysses

10-10-2005, 06:05 AM

I will often fold right there. Depends on the button.

mgsimpleton

10-10-2005, 06:08 AM

there is one point not many people have been mentioning but i think needs to be said. if sb is reasonably tight, i would be way more tempted to call with 66 than to call with JJ. that way you can't talk yourself into giving away more money on an undercard flop. furthermore, when someone reraises preflop and they see a J, they get scared. not the same with a 6. if we're only playing it for set value, 66 is better for deception and reverse implied odds don't exist... i realize we don't have 66 in this spot but just wanted to make that point, that JJ is worse imo because of reverse implied odds but also because of less implied odds, preflop reraisers shrivel up when they see a J very often.

durrrr

10-10-2005, 06:25 AM

I'm not playing JJ just for set value in this spot unless the SB is uber tight. 4 handed the SB should be reraising a lot of hands here (meaning not just AA,KK), Hero has 20x the raise in his stack, and position. This is an awful fold IMO, unless SB is known to be very tight, and very good (I don't think theres an opponent on ps 5/10 i'd fold this to- but i'm still trying to think).

In response to El D, would u fold there in 5/10 normally... or do you mean higher games (where presumably people have slightly wider ranges and play them better postflop).

to the duck: i think the SB has 77-tt here a fair % of the time. Doesnt mean i disagree with the fact that we stack AA easier w/ 66 on a 632 flop than JJ on a J32 flop, but i still think JJ is more profitable to play here than 66. In fact a large % of the time i'd fold 66 here (probably greater than 50), however there are no 2 people currently playing @ stars 5/10 against whom i would fold JJ in heroes spot. Remember the times we set/set the button (rare, but mucho mucho $$). However w/ 66 we are much more often on the wrong end of set/set.

mgsimpleton

10-10-2005, 06:29 AM

missed that it was 4 handed. full ring or 7+ my comments still apply... 4 handed i agree folding JJ here outright is bad.

durrrr

10-10-2005, 06:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
missed that it was 4 handed. full ring or 7+ my comments still apply

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, full ring i fold at least 1/2 the time here, probably more.

Yeti

10-10-2005, 08:05 AM

Call.

Ulysses

10-10-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In response to El D, would u fold there in 5/10 normally...

[/ QUOTE ]

My word choice was poor and rather inaccurate. Rather than "I will often fold right there, depending on button" I should have said "That is not an auto-call for me there and I will fold more often than most, depending on button."

Default is to call.

ML4L

10-10-2005, 10:13 AM

This reminds me of a JJ hand that I posted about a year and a half ago. I tried to search the archives to find the link, but either the archives are being screwy or I'm incompetent. Either way, I'll try to find it again later...

In the meantime, if someone else has the link and/or is able to find it, please post it. The title was something like, "A Day with ML4L." I think there might be a link to it in one of the "Retro" threads as well...

ML4L

AceHiStation

10-10-2005, 11:04 AM

Posting this before reading replies.

I look to sneak into this pot for a set, but I'm willing to play a pot with unders. 4-handed seems like Button makes a routine steal attempt, and SB makes a routine blind defense. I would expect your hand to be best here, but you have position on SB and shouldn't be worried about button too much as he probably was making a routine steal. Make the call, play some poker on the flop, but be sure to define his/your hands early to avoid a huge pot in case you're dominated.

rwperu34

10-10-2005, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of a JJ hand that I posted about a year and a half ago. I tried to search the archives to find the link, but either the archives are being screwy or I'm incompetent. Either way, I'll try to find it again later...

In the meantime, if someone else has the link and/or is able to find it, please post it. The title was something like, "A Day with ML4L." I think there might be a link to it in one of the "Retro" threads as well...

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

A Day With ML4L (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=726284&Fo rum=,,f5,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Main=72616 6&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=775&daterange=1&n ewerval=&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post726284)

ML4L

10-10-2005, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of a JJ hand that I posted about a year and a half ago. I tried to search the archives to find the link, but either the archives are being screwy or I'm incompetent. Either way, I'll try to find it again later...

In the meantime, if someone else has the link and/or is able to find it, please post it. The title was something like, "A Day with ML4L." I think there might be a link to it in one of the "Retro" threads as well...

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

A Day With ML4L (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=726284&Fo rum=,,f5,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Main=72616 6&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=775&daterange=1&n ewerval=&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post726284)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's close. I posted three hands from that day. The JJ hand was Hand 3. Let me see if I can't find the hand in question...

Thanks for this one, though.

ML4L

-Skeme-

10-10-2005, 08:19 PM

So then we're calling with 22-TT as well?

rwperu34

10-10-2005, 08:26 PM

A Day with ML4L Hand 3 (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=plnlpoker&Number=7340 28&Searchpage=2&Main=734028&Words=ML4L&topic=&Sear ch=true#Post734028)

Only hands 1 and 2 were in the Retro threads.

ML4L

10-10-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of a JJ hand that I posted about a year and a half ago. I tried to search the archives to find the link, but either the archives are being screwy or I'm incompetent. Either way, I'll try to find it again later...

In the meantime, if someone else has the link and/or is able to find it, please post it. The title was something like, "A Day with ML4L." I think there might be a link to it in one of the "Retro" threads as well...

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

A Day With ML4L (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=plnlpoker&Number=726284&Fo rum=,,f5,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Main=72616 6&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=775&daterange=1&n ewerval=&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev =#Post726284)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's close. I posted three hands from that day. The JJ hand was Hand 3. Let me see if I can't find the hand in question...

Thanks for this one, though.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

Found it...

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=734028&an=0&page=592 #Post734028

ML4L

10-10-2005, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A Day with ML4L Hand 3 (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=plnlpoker&Number=7340 28&Searchpage=2&Main=734028&Words=ML4L&topic=&Sear ch=true#Post734028)

Only hands 1 and 2 were in the Retro threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beat me to it...

ML4L

BobboFitos

10-10-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3) 5-handed with agressive pros, my hand is going to be best a good percentage of the time.
4) Even if CO has a big hand, I am almost getting my odds to flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

veddy inter-estante.

I like the ratoinale for a call, but #3 and #4 seem to contradict each other. You're either playing for a set or playing for a set + overpair (hand is good now).

As in... If you're only playing for a set, it doesnt matter that your hand could be good a big % of the time, because you're going to muck to a continuation bet barring a jack.

Only caveat I guess would be since it's live you pick up on something that tells you your hand is good, but I dont have enough live experience to make that read.

Also wondering if you play QQ same way.

Yarney

10-10-2005, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So then we're calling with 22-TT as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how well the SB can get away from a hand. There is nothing more profitable for me than finding a player that lets you know he has a monster (AA or KK) and you know he won't be able to get away from the hand when you flop a set. The trick is being able to get away from your opponent when he flops a higher set.

-Yarney

ML4L

10-10-2005, 08:54 PM

Hey Bobbo,

[ QUOTE ]

As in... If you're only playing for a set, it doesnt matter that your hand could be good a big % of the time, because you're going to muck to a continuation bet barring a jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid point, except for the fact that I did not necessarily intend to muck to a continuation bet. Again, I thought that my hand was probably best, and if I got a reasonable flop, I was going to put some money behind it. Another thing that played into my decision was:

[ QUOTE ]
Only caveat I guess would be since it's live you pick up on something that tells you your hand is good, but I dont have enough live experience to make that read.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a big deal. As it so happened, CO visably grimaced when I called. So, after that, I was very certain that I had the best hand and would have played it as such postflop.

I'm actually still beating myself up over this hand, because when SB limped initially, he kinda did this twitch when he saw his cards. And he wasn't one who limped a lot to begin with. So, I thought to myself, that's kinda odd... But, by the time the action got to me (I think someone was grabbing food or something and it took a minute or two), the tell had slipped my mind (I was REALLY tired...). So, that cost me a couple hundred bucks... I left shortly thereafter.

[ QUOTE ]
Also wondering if you play QQ same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. Still not 100% sure that it's right, though...

Mike

BobboFitos

10-10-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is a big deal. As it so happened, CO visably grimaced when I called. So, after that, I was very certain that I had the best hand and would have played it as such postflop.

I'm actually still beating myself up over this hand, because when SB limped initially, he kinda did this twitch when he saw his cards. And he wasn't one who limped a lot to begin with. So, I thought to myself, that's kinda odd... But, by the time the action got to me (I think someone was grabbing food or something and it took a minute or two), the tell had slipped my mind (I was REALLY tired...). So, that cost me a couple hundred bucks... I left shortly thereafter.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are things that Im sorely missing and trying to get better... That kind of info could save you a good deal of money, whereas I just cant ascertain that info yet! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Also wondering if you play QQ same way.

Probably. Still not 100% sure that it's right, though...

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd be confused, but it seems like the best line

ML4L

10-10-2005, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These are things that Im sorely missing and trying to get better... That kind of info could save you a good deal of money, whereas I just cant ascertain that info yet! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's generally not as easy as I made it sound. Again, we had all been playing a long time at this point, and I think we were all a little out of it.

CO generally wouldn't be that easy to read (i.e. he is capable of reverse tells), but at this point, he was really frustrated and clearly thinking something along the lines of:

"I'm the best player at this table and am somehow stuck $2,000. I finally catch a decent hand and this [censored] catches something even better."

The SB is kinda old, so it's highly possible that he was bluffing when he reraised and that the twitch that I saw was just a neurological disorder... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mike