who needs a free card?

[wheelz]

villain is unknown. tell me this is standard.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

[sthief09]

there's enough draw there that I might feel inclined to pay off, so I like a free showdown turn raise which might even fold a better hand

[baronzeus]

i raise the turn


err actually im not sure if i want to go to showdown. will think more.

[Jeff W]

Neutral Evaluation of Turn Raise:

1. You have to fold a better hand or successfully get to showdown with the best hand unimproved &gt;1/8.23 times to justify the turn raise.

2. Raising the turn lowers your implied odds on the river.

[cartman]

I usually raise the flop and bet the turn here when my draw has showdown value and my opponent isn't very aggressive.

Against an opponent very likely to be bluffing or very likely to 3-bet or stop and go I just call down like you did planning on calling the river also unless maybe a spade hits.

I don't like the turn raise unless I know he is capable of folding a better hand that he would also have donked the flop with and this is rare against my typical opponents.




If you guys had raised the flop you would take the free card on the turn?

What do you guys think of raising the flop and betting the turn?

Thanks,
Cartman

[ALL1N]

A few things:
-I don't think you have much if any showdown equity: you're only beating small flush draws.
-I don't think you've got much fold equity: if he has a slightly better hand than you, he'll often have a gutshot too.
-All your outs are scare cards, so I don't think you get to raise the turn very often when you hit.

All this makes me think you should raise the flop, take a free card, and fold the river.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
A few things:
-I don't think you have much if any showdown equity: you're only beating small flush draws.
-I don't think you've got much fold equity: if he has a slightly better hand than you, he'll often have a gutshot too.
-All your outs are scare cards, so I don't think you get to raise the turn very often when you hit.

All this makes me think you should raise the flop, take a free card, and fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]BINGO.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
All this makes me think you should raise the flop, take a free card, and fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The flop bet is more likely to be a made hand than a draw.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this makes me think you should raise the flop, take a free card, and fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The flop bet is more likely to be a made hand than a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when?

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is more likely to be a made hand than a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that &gt;50% of the time, the flop bet is a draw?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is more likely to be a made hand than a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that &gt;50% of the time, the flop bet is a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its close...but its been shifting. i think it used to be that people always donked with draws and CRed with pairs, but then everyone realized that and have begun to do the opposite. I still think this is very often a draw though.

[Jeff W]

Villain cold-called in SB. I believe this is a crucial element in evaluating this hand. Compared to an unknown who called in the BB, an SB cold-caller is much more likely to have a hand that paired this flop than a pure draw.

[stigmata]

Standard for me is raise the flop, bet the turn, and check the river if I missed.

I like this because:
A) We have good pot equity so betting the turn isn’t that expensive
B) There is a small but reasonable chance that he is betting a draw, so getting to showdown isn’t that expensive
C) He may even fold bottom pair

All these combined, I think, give us a better EV than taking a free turn card and folding river. Or just calling down. Although it could be close, and I could be wrong.