Bankroll Psychology - my unusual problem

[LearnedfromTV]

I am in a frustrating situation and want to hear thoughts.

I've won a lot of money over the past year. I don't want to use numbers but lets just say a significant amount but not a ridiculous amount. My problem, if you can call it that, is that I am obsessed with saving and investing my money. This is actually a borderline problem in general. I stretch myself thin on bills or expenses in order to see the amount I have invested go up. I think of poker as a way to supplement my fixed salary so that I have more to invest. Once money is in my investment accounts it is untouchable.

This "problem" may not seem like much of a problem. Here's why it is, or where I need advice. When I lose, I feel like I am losing more than I actually am relative to the amounts I have won before. Every time I build up a bankroll I cash out most of it and start over. Some of those times, like this weekend, I get impatient with playing lower stakes and try to build quickly, thinking in the back of my mind, "this is only a small part of my winnings, it's ok to lose it." Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't - it's effectively playing a short bankroll. But when I actually lose it, like today, it feels like I've lost everything, even though I've actually just lost like 3% of my winnings. Mostly, it's just a bad luck run, which happens, but no matter how much i try to avoid it I also tilt some on the way down. It feels as though I'm self-destructively losing my whole roll, because the money I've won and put away doesn't count to me any more.

Basically, i feel like i'm doing a shitty job of treating poker like an investment in its own right. Whenever I have a substantial chunk of money sitting in non-interest bearing poker account when I have stocks I want to buy or funds to add money to, I feel like it is a waste and pull it out.

This bothers me for two reasons. First, I hate feeling bad when I go through a losing streak and drop one of these "short bankrolls". Second, I feel like I am stunting my growth to higher limits/buyins.

Does anyone else a similar issue or any advice?

[Dan Mezick]

I fail to see the problem.

You have effectively decided investing is more important than poker and many other items competeing for your attention. You have effectively made investing your top priority.

This poker behavior supports that intention.

What's the problem again?? Give yourself permission to keep doing this. Here is the only item you may want to adjust:

[ QUOTE ]
Some of those times, like this weekend, I get impatient with playing lower stakes and try to build quickly, thinking in the back of my mind, "this is only a small part of my winnings, it's ok to lose it."

[/ QUOTE ]

Change it to "this is real money, it's NOT OK to lose it." That is aligned with your intentions as stated.

You have alot more figured out than you realize.

[Python49]

Player A makes $1000 a month playing small stakes
At the end of each month player A takes out 90% of this 1000 and continues to grind away small stakes.

Player B made 1000 in a month, then moved up in stakes and then made 2000 next month. He then took this total of 3000 and made another 3000 the month after.

See where i'm going with this?

[ QUOTE ]
My problem, if you can call it that, is that I am obsessed with saving and investing my money. This is actually a borderline problem in general. I stretch myself thin on bills or expenses in order to see the amount I have invested go up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll trade problems with you anyday.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Isn't the only problem your inability or unwillingness to calculate and see whether your stock(or whatever form) of investment compares to your poker investment, or vice versa?

This is a math problem, your psychological hang-ups about the issue are because you don't know the right answer so you go with the "safer" one, but then you regret it later because you realize that you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the only problem your inability or unwillingness to calculate and see whether your stock(or whatever form) of investment compares to your poker investment, or vice versa?

This is a math problem, your psychological hang-ups about the issue are because you don't know the right answer so you go with the "safer" one, but then you regret it later because you realize that you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding! We have a winner.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the only problem your inability or unwillingness to calculate and see whether your stock(or whatever form) of investment compares to your poker investment, or vice versa?

This is a math problem, your psychological hang-ups about the issue are because you don't know the right answer so you go with the "safer" one, but then you regret it later because you realize that you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding! We have a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or too hammer home the pont other posters have made. You will probably make more money in the longrun, by keeping and growing a sufficient bankroll to allow you to play at the highest stake at which you are comfortable.

When you reach the point where you no longer feel the need to move up, you can cash out a larger percentage of your monthly winnings.

I started out a about 18months ago with what ended up being a $750 investment. Even if you factor in buying a new computer and poker books... call it $2000.

The amount I have been able to cash out, not counting what I have kept to grow my bankroll; is a much higher ROI, than anything I could have hoped for in most securities investments.

I am sure most here could say the same thing.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]

Basically, i feel like i'm doing a shitty job of treating poker like an investment in its own right. Whenever I have a substantial chunk of money sitting in non-interest bearing poker account when I have stocks I want to buy or funds to add money to, I feel like it is a waste and pull it out.



[/ QUOTE ]

I am intentionally waiting (from investing in a house) to avoid this problem. I hate being on a short bankroll, where loses seem 10x bigger than they are. I still don't like losing, but it doesn't bother me too much if I have enough in my accounts.

True I could invest the extra (the amount over 15 buy ins) and replenish if I bust, but that doesn't work for me.

[bernie]

So basically you really want to move up limits and make more, so you have more to invest?

[ QUOTE ]
Once money is in my investment accounts it is untouchable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, this is how I see my bankroll. I can only touch that which is above my operating BR. However, that doesn't mean you have to leave the full BR on a site. But given your feelings toward busting out, it's something to consider to leave it in.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, i feel like i'm doing a shitty job of treating poker like an investment in its own right. Whenever I have a substantial chunk of money sitting in non-interest bearing poker account when I have stocks I want to buy or funds to add money to, I feel like it is a waste and pull it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not treating poker as a long term investment. You're treating it like a shortterm deal.

[ QUOTE ]
thinking in the back of my mind, "this is only a small part of my winnings, it's ok to lose it."

[/ QUOTE ]

This line lends itself to you might also be pulling it out out of fear of losing it all back. Realize the money you pull out of your accounts is part of your 'tool' of the trade. It's what helps you move up and sustain swings.

[ QUOTE ]
First, I hate feeling bad when I go through a losing streak and drop one of these "short bankrolls". Second, I feel like I am stunting my growth to higher limits/buyins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are stunting your growth to higher limits in doing what you're doing. Goal set to move up limits.

You may also not fully understand the signifigance of a working bankroll to play with. Do you like busting out and constantly rebuilding with a smaller BR? Doesn't it get old after awhile? Well, it's obvious what you have to do to change that pattern, isn't it? Why pull out enough that you are now under a 300-500bb roll?

Maybe you also haven't gone on an extended losing streak to realize why we keep that big a roll. It's common that many don't really understand that until you've gone through it. Sometimes multiple times.

Why not just pull a certain percentage out every month? Like 10-25% instead of the greater portion of your roll.

Just some ideas...

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Player A makes $1000 a month playing small stakes
At the end of each month player A takes out 90% of this 1000 and continues to grind away small stakes.

Player B made 1000 in a month, then moved up in stakes and then made 2000 next month. He then took this total of 3000 and made another 3000 the month after.

See where i'm going with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then player B plays too high for his roll and loses 4900. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

Why is money in an investment account untouchable? Why does your bankroll have to consist solely of money which is in on an account in an online casino (or wherever you keep it if you play in a B&M cardroom)?

If you have a bankroll of $10,000, it is not necessary for this bankroll to sit in a poker account. Some of it could be in cash stuffed under your mattress, some in cd's, some in a money market account. It doesn't matter where it is, you can consider it part of your bankroll if you decide to.

If you want to keep part of your poker bankroll in an interest earning account, then do so, having first decided that it was still part of your bankroll.

[onegymrat]

Hi TV,

I think it IS a problem, but not as serious as you think, although it is entirely psychological. Everyone had great responses but I favor what Bernie and Chris20202 stated.

The reason why this is even an issue is that poker is a only a part-time job/hobby for you, and not a career/full-time job. Let's say you opened up a small business, and you invested $20k into mercandise. Aside from getting a refund for your investment, that money is spent and done with, and hopefully you will move the merchandise and get a profit from it.

This would be similar for the serious poker player at the 20/40 limit (500BBs=$20k). That money is an investment that is put aside, which you should not touch. Hopefully, anything gained above the $20k may be used to pay bills and other expenses in life. Unlike the previous analogy though, technically, this $20k is still here, and may be needed from time to time. How much would depend on how your sessions are going.

As a part-time player/hobbyist, it is difficult to imagine money sitting around NOT getting any residues. You don't count on this money to live off of, because you have a full-time career doing something else, something you can count on bi-weekly. You still don't count on poker money, therefore, you don't take it as seriously as you're "supposed" to. This is just icing on the cake, per se. When you win money, rather than seeing it as "bankroll building money", you see it as "MY money now".

How do you fix this problem? Well, either you need to treat it as a real business and put the proper bankroll aside (or into an account that is easily retrievable) for the limit in which you aspire to play or stay at a low limit where the swings will never affect you very much. Unless you really NEED to have poker as your number one source of income, I don't think you'll be able to fix this "problem".

How do I know this? Because I have the same problem. Good luck.