Commerce 40/80 - An LC hand and a question

[Dazarath]

Commerce 40/80
My normal game is 20/40, but I decided to take a shot last night because the 20 line was longer than the 40 line.

The villain in this hand is an extremely loose Mexican guy who calls too much on draws. Just for clarification, an underpair is a draw, as can be a single overcard. I saw both during the course of the night. Overall, I'd say he's a bit on the passive side. Here's the hand:

I am dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB. There are 3-4 limpers and the SB completes. Hero raises. All of the limpers call.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero checks. Everyone else checks.

Turn: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero bets. Villain calls and everyone else folds.

River: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero checks. Villain bets. Hero calls.

Now at this point, I'm looking at the guy waiting to see his hand. And instead, he gives me the same look as if he's waiting to see my hand. It's obvious my A-high is good and he doesn't want to show his bluff. The table starts to get impatient after a few seconds and the guy finally says, "Jack high". I turn over my Ace and this black guy next to me (he's really pissed at me because I took a large pot off of him a couple hands ago) says, "Show both cards of the winning hand". I show the second card in order to speed things up, plus, I know if he really wants to see them, he could ask anyways.

My question is, I thought the bettor was obligated to show his cards first. Is he allowed to just say "Jack high" and not show? Couldn't I just say something like "a pair of 8s" and then if they show a pair of 9s, I could be like, "Oops, I meant a pair of 10s", or if they show Js, then I muck? I understand that I could've asked to see his cards, but that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in standard conventions that speed the game up. If every showdown consisted of everyone waiting for everyone else to table their cards, we'd probably get a measley 20 hands/hour in. Lastly, if he says "Jack high" and I show an Ace and he mucks, is that good enough, or am I obligated to show the second card regardless of anyone else demanding to see it?

Sorry for all of my silly questions. As I'm sure any of you have guessed, I spend a lot more time with a mouse in hand rather than actual chips.

[PGarlic]

Yes, the bettor is supposed to show his hand first. In live games though it's very common for either player to just anounce his hand. It's a generally accepted practice and makes the game more light hearted, which is what you want. It's also common for the bettor to just say "I missed" which basically means he has nothing.

Just show your hand and take it down, if the loose player starts to think he's going to have to show his crap hand more often he's going to tighten up, not what you want!

[private joker]

1) I strongly dislike the flop check; this is perfect board to continuation bet on and fold out a ton of hands you want out.

2) A winning hand always needs to show both cards. Once you know you're the winner, just flip them up and scoop the chips. What's with this "just showing the ace" crap? Of course the Villain is supposed to show his cards first, but just because he's out of line is no reason for you to be.

3) Why is it significant that the Villain was "Mexican" and the guy who just wanted you to play by the rules was black?

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I strongly dislike the flop check; this is perfect board to continuation bet on and fold out a ton of hands you want out.

2) A winning hand always needs to show both cards. Once you know you're the winner, just flip them up and scoop the chips. What's with this "just showing the ace" crap? Of course the Villain is supposed to show his cards first, but just because he's out of line is no reason for you to be.

3) Why is it significant that the Villain was "Mexican" and the guy who just wanted you to play by the rules was black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the advice from points 1 and 2. As for 3, I use those as descriptions, not as a racist remark. Would it be better if I said something like, "tall, middle-aged man", or "short, chubby woman"? If you prefer, I could just label people guy X and guy Y.

[private joker]

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As for 3, I use those as descriptions, not as a racist remark. Would it be better if I said something like, "tall, middle-aged man", or "short, chubby woman"? If you prefer, I could just label people guy X and guy Y.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the descriptions are relevant to the reads you make while playing, it's fine -- e.g. "a 93 year-old Asian woman raised the river" and "22 year-old white kid with wraparound shades raised the river" mean different things -- but in your case, the guy asking to see both cards was just a guy asking to see both cards.

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3) Why is it significant that the Villain was "Mexican" and the guy who just wanted you to play by the rules was black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry that a black man (I'm assuming based on your avatar) had to be the one to ask this. I wish I would have seen it first (I'm white). I really hate anything that even hints at racism (no offense to the OP, but I think you can see why people would think that).

Will

[nothumb]

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3) Why is it significant that the Villain was "Mexican" and the guy who just wanted you to play by the rules was black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry that a black man (I'm assuming based on your avatar) had to be the one to ask this. I wish I would have seen it first (I'm white). I really hate anything that even hints at racism (no offense to the OP, but I think you can see why people would think that).

Will

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Thanks for taking all the guilt for all us white people. Nice job.

NT

[Dazarath]

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As for 3, I use those as descriptions, not as a racist remark. Would it be better if I said something like, "tall, middle-aged man", or "short, chubby woman"? If you prefer, I could just label people guy X and guy Y.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the descriptions are relevant to the reads you make while playing, it's fine -- e.g. "a 93 year-old Asian woman raised the river" and "22 year-old white kid with wraparound shades raised the river" mean different things -- but in your case, the guy asking to see both cards was just a guy asking to see both cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always found it ridiculous that people even consider this racist at all. Mentioning a person's ethnicity is just a description. Next thing someone's going to tell me is that saying "man" or "woman" is sexist. I don't feel I described them in a demeaning manner with regards to their race. If you think otherwise, let me know and I'll try to watch what I type in the future.

[private joker]

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I've always found it ridiculous that people even consider this racist at all. Mentioning a person's ethnicity is just a description. Next thing someone's going to tell me is that saying "man" or "woman" is sexist. I don't feel I described them in a demeaning manner with regards to their race. If you think otherwise, let me know and I'll try to watch what I type in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was racist. I don't think it is. I just find it very peculiar and surprising. It's like saying you witnessed a bar brawl, and specifying that you were drinking Corona when it occurred. Out-of-the-blue irrelevant specifications like that are always weird to me.

Oh, and by the way -- I am not famous actor/musician Mos Def.

[Dazarath]

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I've always found it ridiculous that people even consider this racist at all. Mentioning a person's ethnicity is just a description. Next thing someone's going to tell me is that saying "man" or "woman" is sexist. I don't feel I described them in a demeaning manner with regards to their race. If you think otherwise, let me know and I'll try to watch what I type in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was racist. I don't think it is. I just find it very peculiar and surprising. It's like saying you witnessed a bar brawl, and specifying that you were drinking Corona when it occurred. Out-of-the-blue irrelevant specifications like that are always weird to me.

Oh, and by the way -- I am not famous actor/musician Mos Def.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well for the record, the reason why I describe people like that is that it feels weird if I start my post with:
The two villains in the hand are X and Y. X is blah blah blah and Y is blah blah blah. In terms of relevance to the hand, no, the races of those players are not relevant.

[Rumbles]

He is indeed obligated to show his hand first, and regardless what he says, you will need to show both cards to win the pot.

HOWEVER, if he releases his hand (with a clear intention to fold), congratulations, you've just won the pot. You can zing your cards into the muck with impunity, because the dealer will award the pot to the last player with cards.

[Ulysses]

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3) Why is it significant that the Villain was "Mexican" and the guy who just wanted you to play by the rules was black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he meant anything by it, was just pointing out that they are poor and dumb.

[Ulysses]

The guy is supposed to turn over his hand first, but once he announces jack-high, just flip over both your cards.

[andyfox]

You could have said "extremely loose player" and "guy next to me." When you say "extremely loose Mexican player" and "black guy next to me" it come across that you felt there was something about the loose player being Mexican that made him loose or the fact that the guy next to you was black having something to do with what he said.

[Boris]

in general the bettor shows first. but it's not like a rule or anything. With loose live players you are better off to just show your hand as you don't want to embarass them. But if you go to vegas, the locals will often play this stupid game and in that case just show your hand and ask to see the cards.

[cpitt398]

I have mixed feeling about the whole racial desription thing. in the intro to George Foreman's Biography he mentions that he will not point out anyone's race when describing people in his book. I found it really compelling and admirable and vowed to try to do the same in my life.

But then I feel it is different when talking about live poker. I will often say the middle eastern guy raised me and I thought he was trying to put a move on me or the Asian lady called my bet in an instant. I truely feel that certain ethniticities can have a certain style when it comes to poker.

I guess its a fine line I try to walk. Either way though, I don't believe race was an issue in the OP story.

[gnawk]

The best thing to do is to tell the player to either show his cards or muck the hand(in a polite way of course). If he shows his cards you get information, if he doesn't you may occasionally win a pot in which you didn't have the best hand.

[BigFishSmallCardRoom]

I agree, I always just tell the guy "show or muck" I'm sure I've won with Jack-high more times than I should've.

[AJo Go All In]

this is pretty much a complete "n00b" move and most people who play a lot will impulsively either turn your card over or tell you to turn it over. it's kind of like playing the C-scale on the piano save for the last note. a musician in the room will want to play the last note.

[Dazarath]

Thanks for the responses guys. It's not like it was my first time in a casino or anything, but it was definitely the first time I ran into the situation where the person who put in the last bet on the river refused to show his cards. It kind of threw me off and that's probably why I showed only one card. I guess what was going through my head was, "Ok, he said Jack-high, I'll show the Ace to prove that I have Ace-high." I think it's a good suggestion to just show both cards after he says Jack-high, or even after it's obvious that he doesn't want to show his cards, for the purpose of speeding the game up and not causing trouble. In general, I don't ask to see people's cards because I know it irritates some people, but I'll save that line for a time when I'm against a tough player and the information is worth it.

[haakee]

El Diablo is right. However, he neglected to mention that if the guy is angle-shooting you and shows you a better hand than yours after telling you he has jack-high then your move is to put a bullet in his head in the parking lot.

[MCS]

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I've always found it ridiculous that people even consider this racist at all. Mentioning a person's ethnicity is just a description. Next thing someone's going to tell me is that saying "man" or "woman" is sexist. I don't feel I described them in a demeaning manner with regards to their race. If you think otherwise, let me know and I'll try to watch what I type in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was racist. I don't think it is. I just find it very peculiar and surprising. It's like saying you witnessed a bar brawl, and specifying that you were drinking Corona when it occurred. Out-of-the-blue irrelevant specifications like that are always weird to me.

Oh, and by the way -- I am not famous actor/musician Mos Def.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, I'm a black guy with a black guy as my avatar, and it IS a picture of me.