How I Became a Christian (LONG)

[Jeff V]

How I Became a Christian


I’m not trying to convert anyone but this is how I came to belief. If it makes someone think about God a little different- all the better. I do have some questions at the end also.

I was raised catholic, never really took it too seriously (neither did my mom) so religion/church was something to think about on Sunday for 45 minutes and that was pretty much it. I started having a problem with authority figures when I was young, and when I turned 18ish God became one of those figures. I felt emptiness, alone, and like life really had no meaning. I had all the normal questions but no-one could give me any decent answers including church. I declared myself an atheist around 22. This was not an easy time for me feeling like I was shammed, tricked etc all these years. I made fun of god, scoffed at believers thought they were naïve etc etc.

The rid of religious guilt was like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. This also made living for me, worrying about myself, and doing what felt good to me so easy. I also began to research my stance in order justify my non-belief, and got pretty good at it. I was married to a good catholic girl at this time. Needless to say she wasn’t too happy with me right then-we eventually divorced.

During the next few years I started to think that here had to be more to life but still was positive it wasn’t a “god”. I looked at some new age stuff, some of which I really liked but that’s another story. None of it really ever took, but I did decided I was being kind of arrogant so I became agnostic. I thought there’s something bigger out there just not some big bearded guy watching, and judging everything I do.

On the positive side in ’98 when I was 26 I walked by the poker room at my local riverboat and just got smoked playing 1-5 stud! I had no concept of poker, but definitely loved the game right away. I got decent at 1-5 , and even moved up to 2-10-ooooohh I thought that was huge, and the people were so much better. I also thought hold’em was really stupid with it’s community cards, and what is flopping? Now it’s 2000, and poker was an awesome outlet for me, I began to take it seriously, bought some books – when I could find them and was doing ok. Also in 2000 I made my first trip to Vegas, a friend talked me into playing some 4-8 hold’em and after an 18 hour session that was the game for me.

Also at this time I discovered string theory which just fascinated me. I mean a complex theory that unified everything, I got really into it, and thought I should take some more physics classes etc. but that didn’t happen.




To keep things somewhat brief- In 2001 I discovered cocaine-ho man Katy bar the door look out etc etc. It got bad for a year. In 2002 I quit coke packed my stuff and moved to Vegas to play poker for a living, taking my best friend with me. I played mostly 8-16& some 15-30 for the majority all my income for 22 months, I loved it but couldn’t build my bankroll. At this time my mom called me told me that my step dad’s business in Wisconsin was getting a huge contract burying underground utilities and I could make 15-20 grand in 3 months. Perfect. This was March 2004.

Wisconsin was sure different than Vegas, (boring!) but I met Marie. She was a marketing analyst at the same company my mom worked at. We started talking, and since she had lived in Wi her whole life I asked if she knew where I could get some coke, and that I was bored out of my mind.. This was on our first date, and I find out she liked coke but had been clean for a while similar to my situation. Having each been through an addiction to coke before we set down some ground rules to keep things straight. In May the company lost the contract -I had made only 8k in those first 2 months. However my thing with Marie and coke was going strong. 4th of July weekend I was back in Vegas visiting, and decided to fly Marie out. She came, we partied a lot I decided to move to Wi to be with her.

By October 2004 things were getting bad- no pretty terrible. We were recluses, I had not been working or playing much cards, and was going broke just typical addicts-cokeheads. I said we needed to quit. So on November 1st, 2004 I quit coke again so did Marie, or so I thought. She relapsed twice, and on 12-26-05 used a bunch of coke, cut her wrists, took around 40 pain killers, and laid in the tub to die- we had been engaged for 3 weeks.

Earlier that day I had left the house telling her and my mom I was moving back to Vegas. This had been way too much for me to deal with. My mom made the comment that “if you can’t be there when Marie needs you the most, why would she need you at all?” I took this to heart and decided to go check on her. She arrived at the hospital barely alive and was rushed to intensive care where she was stabilized over the next day, and eventually sent to the psychiatric wing. My mom who had been “saved” for 15 or so years said she was praying for Marie, and had me drop off a copy of “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren. Marie told me she had accepted Christ and felt like she was really delivered from drugs this time. At this point I figured whatever she needed to think didn’t matter as long as it helped her. Her grandparents told us about an addicts recovery group at their church that met on Tuesday nights.

I thought oh man; I don’t want to go to a church! I hadn’t been to a church really in 15 years. I figured whatever it takes to help Marie since I was sure I could kick it on my own.





I remember walking into the room, and when the door opened they were singing, and I felt what to me was no less than God putting His arm around me saying “don’t worry everything’s going to be ok.” I looked at Marie we were both crying. A few days later I accepted Christ as my savior. When these things happened to Marie, and I the Holy Spirit came into our lives and changed us. I know how crazy it sounds… I truly became a new person. We wnet back to vegas and got married 2-12-05, and are expecting our first child 2-17-06.

I’m aware that science can’t prove any of this. Should that discount everything though? Is it just because perception is reality? Did I just have a Jerry McGuire moment? Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues? Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality? I would answer all of the above no, but that is why this is a discussion board.

Jeff

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues? Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of these, something else along these lines, or a combination of said options are almost certainly true.

That being said, I am honestly happy for you, I advise not spend much time on this forum, and good luck to you with your new found happiness.

[Taraz]

I hope I don't come off as disrespectful at all because I am genuinely curious about people who "find God" or are born-again or whatever.

So Marie attempted suicide and failed and then you guys went to a rehab church group. Upon entering the church you both felt relieved and at peace. Is all this right? I don't doubt any of this and I believe that religion can be an important part of everyone's life, but I don't understand how this comfort has convinced you to accept Christ as your savior.

How does any of this make you feel any more confident that Christ died for your sins? How has it convinced you that he is the only way to God? I don't really care if science can prove any of this because science can never prove or disprove the existence of God. But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you? Why does this make you believe in the Bible? I don't get the connection between feeling saved/at peace/relieved/etc and accepting the bible as absolute truth.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I advise not spend much time on this forum

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind this advice?

[handsome]

Great story/testimony. You didn't really go into depth with Marie's transition -- I'm assuming the book convicted her?

[Jeff V]

Yes, the book got her on her knees.

That's great that it helped your life. There is a glaring void in your story though -- your faith seems 100% wholly derived from your warm fuzzy provided by the church and 0% derived from rational analysis of its doctrine. For this reason, I think your arguments in this forum are quite lacking.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the best way to describe it.

You also raise some good other questions in your last paragraph. I could write a post probably 3 times as long desicribing the almost 10 months sice then. Just say I've been fortunate enough to get plenty of affirmations during that time though.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
your faith seems 100% wholly derived from your warm fuzzy provided by the church and 0% derived from rational analysis of its doctrine

[/ QUOTE ]

True that my faith was derived from what happened at that church-yes. I did not want to make my post Sunday school either. As I've stated before, faith brought me to belief, but study of the Bible, and research on creationism has strengthened it far more than I expected.

BTW- even if yor stement was correct how would that take away from what i feel are very well thought about points about God, creation, or ID?

I think it would be fair to suggest that any cult with a good salesmen could have converted you at that point.

I am not denying the benefits, they are likely to be social effects along with a tool to re-program your perception of your history, current situation and your out-look.

I think that the atheists/agnostics here would just point out that continuing this idea of a real magical overlord is unneccessary (it may have more value if taught as a fable: at least then people couldn't 'rationally' declare war over land promised to them by the magical overlord)

[David Sklansky]

"I advise not spend much time on this forum"


"What is the logic behind this advice?"

Are you kidding? Actually it is similar to why I'm backing off as well.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
"I advise not spend much time on this forum"


"What is the logic behind this advice?"

Are you kidding? Actually it is similar to why I'm backing off as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?

[spaminator101]

Hey im just coming back to this forum

[malorum]

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what David is trying to say:

He feels that all those incredibly cogent Xtian arguments when combined with the barrage of our earnest prayer, are likely to overwhelm his senses and lead to a conversion experience.

Interesting story, thanks for posting.
I'm glad you found faith in something, life is definitely less without it. Good luck with your journey.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what David is trying to say:

He feels that all those incredibly cogent Xtian arguments when combined with the barrage of our earnest prayer, are likely to overwhelm his senses and lead to a conversion experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha.

[Peter666]

Out of curiosity, what is happening with your first wife?

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the best way to describe it.

You also raise some good other questions in your last paragraph. I could write a post probably 3 times as long desicribing the almost 10 months sice then. Just say I've been fortunate enough to get plenty of affirmations during that time though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind explaining some of these affirmations? As I said, I'm really fascinated by stories like yours.

[NotReady]

Thanks for posting this - I know it isn't easy to put something like this out there amongst the wolves.

[ QUOTE ]

Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. We all are. God made us that way.

[ QUOTE ]

Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And much, much more.

[ QUOTE ]

Is it just my addictive personality?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Your love for the things of this world would lead you away from God, not towards Him.

There is emotion in religion and especially in conversion. This is genuine and you shouldn't ignore it. The realization of your guilt and the forgivess of that guilt, the affirmation of meaning in your life, the certainty of purpose in the universe, and much more should produce an emotional high. But that feeling doesn't last, nor should your faith be based on it.

C.S. Lewis once said his faith was weakest after he had spent time defending it publically. The reason is that for just a brief time it seemed as if the truth of Christianity itself depended on him and his abilities, and that can make the whole thing seem weak indeed. Because of that you might be better off not spending much time on this board. There are difficult and tricky arguments against Christianity and many people who would like you to "unconvert".

I don't think I've ever read a so-called "problem text" presented by an unbeliever without at least a brief doubt flashing through my mind. "Is this really a contradiction? Oh no" or "How do I explain that?" Even Satan comes "as an angel of light". He can sometimes be very plausible. I've also never failed to laugh at how quickly my faith can be weakened by the slightest of attacks. There are many arrows launched against us. You should only expose yourself to those you have prepared for, and don't be surprised that you occasionally have weakness. There is no magic formula for the Christian life - we walk by faith, not by sight - and we are all individuals as well as Christ's church. God is able to make you stand, you can never do so on your own strength.

[chezlaw]

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Quote:
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Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?



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Yes. We all are. God made us that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I know you're wrong. If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.

chez

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically the excuse Adam and Eve tried to use. It didn't work then and it won't now.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically the excuse Adam and Eve tried to use. It didn't work then and it won't now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not making excuses. If you could see inside my mind as I can you would know the truth of which I speak. If there's a god then of course he can see inside my mind and will also know the truth of it.

You, of course, have no access to my mind except what I tell you and your claim to knowledge is false.

chez

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

If you could see inside my mind


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a question of what you think is in your mind and what is in God's word, I'll take His word. He didn't make you so that you are unable to believe. You made yourself that way.

I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you could see inside my mind


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a question of what you think is in your mind and what is in God's word, I'll take His word. He didn't make you so that you are unable to believe. You made yourself that way.

I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you didn't believe words of men (that claim to come from god) then you would be like me and not believe.

Just because you believe they are the words of god does not make it so.

chez

[txag007]

Excellent post, Not Ready.

[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.


[/ QUOTE ]

TY.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?



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Yes. We all are. God made us that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I know you're wrong. If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I think is ironic? (And this is not directed specifically at you, chez. But your post made me think of it.) All of us here on the board have inquisitive minds. We love a challenge, too. We want to be challenged. To solve a puzzle is fulfilling. I’ll quote benkahuna on why he posts here. (Btw ben, my reasons are similar to yours. I was just trying to be humorous when I stated why I post. Evidently I failed.)

1. Boredom
2. Keep intellectually active (poker alone just isn't enough).
3. Learn something
4. Dispel my own misconceptions
5. Keep my debate skills on point.

Anyway, so here we are a gang of challenge seekers (a lot safer and warmer than climbing Everest, too – although now that we know it is really 12 feet shorter, maybe I’ll give it a go).

We have no problem with the fact that “nature” and the universe gives us the challenges it does. Why are the “secrets” not revealed by nature? We don't curse nature. Often the quest to just “know” is enough to keep scientists going in their work. “Because it is there” if you will.

Yet, when we speak of God not revealing these same answers or indeed Himself, we call him (or for the atheists, the non existent thing we believers call God) more or less a Son of B. (Often this type of talk is even used to show the futility of believing in a God.) That is what I find ironic. Wonder why that is?

[bohemian]

Jeff, come further.
Power vs. Force (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561709336/104-8030632-0364748?v=glance&amp;n=283155&amp;n=507846&amp;s=books&amp;v=glanc e)

Peace on your path.

[BradyC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

When reading the forums, I usually just dismiss empty quotes such as this without giving them much thought, and just read the posts containing substance. They pull an obscure quote from someone's post and mock it without ever addressing what the person actually said. I always just figured it is someone trying to be funny with a witty one-liner remark. However, the consistency of such remarks make me wonder if people are afraid to reply due to inadequate answers, or they really aren't comprehending what they're reading.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

When reading the forums, I usually just dismiss empty quotes such as this without giving them much thought, and just read the posts containing substance. They pull an obscure quote from someone's post and mock it without ever addressing what the person actually said. I always just figured it is someone trying to be funny with a witty one-liner remark. However, the consistency of such remarks make me wonder if people are afraid to reply due to inadequate answers, or they really aren't comprehending what they're reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have addressed NotReady's posts on many occasions. I felt his quote above summarized my thoughts on his beliefs quite succinctly, however.

[ QUOTE ]
Yet, when we speak of God not revealing these same answers or indeed Himself, we call him (or for the atheists, the non existent thing we believers call God) more or less a Son of B. (Often this type of talk is even used to show the futility of believing in a God.) That is what I find ironic. Wonder why that is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeking challenges and exploring the mysteries of the universe is a wonderful thing.

Theists, by definition, have made up their mind about the existence of God. When they come across something they don't understand or would like to be different (evolution, big bang, lack of absolute morals, basically any personal incredulity or uncomfortableness), they put it in their little God pigeonhole and are satisfied with explanation. They also tend to believe they are justified in holding such closed minded, anti inquisitive beliefs. Gawd did it, it's all OK! Problem solved. You can stop thinking and questioning and feeling uncomfortable, you have an answer!

When an atheist makes a comment about God's lack of revelation, they are simply pointing out that such closed minded and brutish beliefs are not supported by evidence and not inspired by an inquisitive spirit. Notready's brain lesion with regard to the basis for secular morality, and Bluffthis's strange, illogical belief that "God has made us and loves us and is making sure his TRUE word is communicated to at least ONE religion" are examples of beliefs not inspired by an inquisitive mind but rather come from somewhere else.

[Lestat]

<font color="red">I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong. </font>

How are you so sure that this is God's word and not the word of others? How do you manage such an enormous faith in what others purport is/was God's word?

If someone tells you the tree in their backyard has spoken, why would you be any less likely to believe them, than these people from such a distant time, whom you never met, and know nothing about? It seems to me that the bulk of your faith must lie in these people. Even more so, than in God.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Notready's brain lesion with regard to the basis for secular morality,


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never denied the existence of relative, secular morality. I've repeated ad nauseum that atheists often outperform Christians in the morality of their lives. What I deny ( along with many philosophers ) is that absolute morality can be justified if God doesn't exist. I've quoted Nietszche, Russell, Marx, Michael Martin and Dostoevsky.

The response I keep getting from all you open-minded atheists is that I'm irrational, I have no basis for making the statement, I have a brain lesion.

Why don't you people ever address the issue instead of resorting to personal insults and straw man arguments?

The question is real simple. Nothing is hidden, nothing is tricky.

Ok, you sitting down? You ready? Here's the question.

Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it?

Did you get that? Do you understand the question? Do you want me to repeat it?

Ok, good, you got it. Now do what no philosopher, theologian or moralist has yet managed. Go ahead. Do it. Show me. Put your money where your mouth is.

Criminy.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]


Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it?



[/ QUOTE ]

There is no answer.

There are no absolutes.

The individual does not survive the body.

If some madman blows us all up tomorrow, that's the end of it.


and it's all "ok". or not "ok". you choose.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

If someone tells you the tree in their backyard has spoken


[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible is not a tree.

[ QUOTE ]

than these people from such a distant time, whom you never met, and know nothing about?


[/ QUOTE ]

We know a lot about them.

The Bible is the most amazing document of ancient history. Its historical and archeological accuracies are superb. Skeptics have been converted simply from making an honest effort to prove it's invalidity.

Search the net. There's tons of information pro and con. If you just want to be flip or have no serious interest in the subject I can't help you.

But the Bible stands out in a way no other religious claims does for many reasons. Most people who say "It's just a book like any other book", or "It's just as reasonable to believe in the spaghetti monster as the Bible" usually have done no investigation of their own.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

There is no answer.

There are no absolutes.

The individual does not survive the body.

If some madman blows us all up tomorrow, that's the end of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You just want to use these as your axioms, starting points, presuppositions, fine. Please don't tell me you are making a logical argument or that you have in any way shown my arguments unsound by making these assertions.

[hurlyburly]

I’m aware that science can’t prove any of this. Should that discount everything though?

No, you should not.

Is it just because perception is reality?

It's all about needs.

Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?

Why didn't you become a born-again research scientist? The answer to this one is obvious.

Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality?

I'm happier for you that you aren't a down and out drug addict. We all have and need crutches, life is hard.

[Lestat]

I'm not trying to be flip. I would love to have more of an understanding about the bible. I haven't delved much further because:

Do you (am I) supposed to take the old testament literally? i.e. do you (should I), believe in talking snakes, men living to be 900 years old, etc? If so, I don't think I can get past that. I'm not sure anyone should.

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't tell me you are making a logical argument or that you have in any way shown my arguments unsound by making these assertions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguments *are* assertions.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it? </font>

Who says he shouldn't? Who says there is no such thing as justifiable murder?

The real question is, why would he want to? Are you suggesting that being an atheist should make you want to be become a murderer?

If a theist doesn't kill because because of his fear of God, and an atheist doesn't kill because he is not so inclined, who is purer of heart?

[ QUOTE ]
The Bible is not a tree.[ QUOTE ]


Actually, I think on a molecular level they would be fairly similar. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[purnell]

Your argument is sound, NR. Without a god, there are no absolutes. There can be no logical argument against that statement. But it doesn't matter. We don't need absolutes. We especially don't need contradictory absolutes.

I am aware that you believe Christianity is somehow different from all the heathen beliefs, but, quite simply, it isn't. The absolute morality given to us by an imaginary god is necessarily imaginary.

[BradyC]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it? </font>

Who says he shouldn't? Who says there is no such thing as justifiable murder?

The real question is, why would he want to? Are you suggesting that being an atheist should make you want to be become a murderer?

If a theist doesn't kill because because of his fear of God, and an atheist doesn't kill because he is not so inclined, who is purer of heart?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are missing the point he is making. It is a rhetorical question that implies that someone cannot reasonably claim murder is wrong while at the same time believing chance is ultimate. It is not saying you should or shoudn't be a murderer.

[Jeff V]

We have been on pretty good terms, though I haven't spoken to her in some time. I do think of her, and mutually we've always wished each other the best.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it? </font>

Who says he shouldn't? Who says there is no such thing as justifiable murder?

The real question is, why would he want to? Are you suggesting that being an atheist should make you want to be become a murderer?

If a theist doesn't kill because because of his fear of God, and an atheist doesn't kill because he is not so inclined, who is purer of heart?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are missing the point he is making. It is a rhetorical question that implies that someone cannot reasonably claim murder is wrong while at the same time believing chance is ultimate. It is not saying you should or shoudn't be a murderer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can make laws against behavior w/o having to make an absolute assessment -- every legistlature in the land does this every day. So enough of the implying "no God, no laws".

[Jeff V]

Thanks NotReady.

[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis once said his faith was weakest after he had spent time defending it publically. The reason is that for just a brief time it seemed as if the truth of Christianity itself depended on him and his abilities, and that can make the whole thing seem weak indeed. Because of that you might be better off not spending much time on this board. There are difficult and tricky arguments against Christianity and many people who would like you to "unconvert".

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point here. This board is helping my faith for the most part, and it allows me see areas in apologetics I need to work on. My questions were somewhat although not completely rhetorical.

Regardless, thanks for the reply.

[David Sklansky]

"Thanks for posting this - I know it isn't easy to put something like this out there amongst the wolves."

And would you be saying this if his testimony led him to become Jewish or Muslim?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think on a molecular level they would be fairly similar.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not online.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

You are missing the point he is making. It is a rhetorical question that implies that someon e cannot reasonably claim murder is wrong while at the same time believing chance is ultimate. It is not saying you should or shoudn't be a murderer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yay.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
do you (should I), believe in talking snakes

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Bible should be read like literature, paying close attention to genre and figures of speach. I see alot of the OT especially Genesis as a historical narrative with symbolism, &amp; repetitive poetic structure. I have a "Life Application Study Bible" which helps with many of these things.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, thanks for the reply.


[/ QUOTE ]

YW.

I don't think there's any real danger, by the way. Having your faith shaken or called into question can cause some short term problems, but working through them helps in the long run. And we often make mistakes which can be corrected by debate and discussion. I've had a couple subtle changes in my thinking over the past year due largely to this forum.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

And would you be saying this if his testimony led him to become Jewish or Muslim?


[/ QUOTE ]


I don't see any need to encourage them. Have any Jews or Muslims encouraged him? Have you?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you (am I) supposed to take the old testament literally? i.e. do you (should I), believe in talking snakes, men living to be 900 years old, etc? If so, I don't think I can get past that. I'm not sure anyone should.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to take this as a general objection to miracles, or what is in the Bible that modern science can't explain and/or says is impossible according to known natural law.

The simple answer is that if God created the universe He can do the far lesser miracles related in the Bible. If He snapped His fingers and light appeared, what does it take to make an axe float or a sea to part?

I've never understood objecting to miracles without first objecting to God. Given God, miracles are easy.

[David Sklansky]

I'll rephrase my question. Do you consider it progress if someone moves from atheism to Islam? If no, how about Mormonism?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

We don't need absolutes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is that an absolute?

[ QUOTE ]

I am aware that you believe Christianity is somehow different from all the heathen beliefs, but, quite simply, it isn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is poles apart from any other religion, heathen or otherwise. This is easy to demonstrate.

[ QUOTE ]

The absolute morality given to us by an imaginary god is necessarily imaginary


[/ QUOTE ]

Question begging.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you consider it progress if someone moves from atheism to Islam? If no, how about Mormonism?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say it's progress as a general rule but it may be the right step for some. But all false religions are idolotry and I don't think that's any better or worse than atheism.

So I wouldn't congratulate someone on moving from atheism to a false religion. It could be a step closer to God for him, but it could also be a step away from God. I think this is something that is ad hoc, and only God and the individual know which.

[David Sklansky]

"But all false religions are idolotry and I don't think that's any better or worse than atheism.

So I wouldn't congratulate someone on moving from atheism to a false religion. It could be a step closer to God for him, but it could also be a step away from God."

A step AWAY from God compared to ATHEISM? Doubt most Christians would agree with you.

Meanwhile what fits your definition of a "false religion"? You seem to include the Jesus believing Mormons in that definition. But you certainly don't mean any religion that doesn't precisely fit yours. What about Christian Scientists, Jehovah's witnesses, Catholics? What about the guy (if such a person exists) who believes that Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins but specifically stays away from worrying about the specifics that Christians squabble about. Are members of this hypothetical, no name, religion OK in your book?

[KeysrSoze]

Alot of people had moments of epiphany in the presense of David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Charles Manson. It may be good enough for the individual, but is that enough to convince others that they were Messianic? Obviously not. But when you talk about Jesus or some established religion changing your life, people dont give it a second thought. I do. Hearing someone base their believe system on a warm, peachy feeling they had while rock-bottom does absolutely nothing to sway my opinion.

[Lestat]

So you honestly DO believe that once upon a time there was a single male member of our species walking around before any presence of a female existed?

It is not that I object to God before miracles. It is quite the opposite. It seems that you require me to believe in miracles before believing in God. The problem is that we are starting to arrive at answers for some of the events you profess as miracles .

It is certainly understandable how man once gazed in awe upon erupting volcanos or thunder and lightning coming from the sky and assumed there must be some supernatural being causing these things. The Gods must be angry.

My question to you is what happens to your line of thinking as these miracles become solved one by one? We now know exactly what causes volcanos to erupt. We know what causes thunder and lightning. I presume that even you would try to explain to someone why a volcano erupts or what causes thunder, rather than let him continue to believe that there is a serperate God of the volcanos or a thunder God, right? But surely you can see how reasonable people believed in them back then, can't you?

And now we are starting to understand the theory of evolution. So what happens to your faith when it becomes scientific fact that man evolved from apes and were present before Adam and Eve?

Again, I'm not trying to be flippant. I just don't understand the mindset of someone who steadfastly denies reality in the face of scientific fact.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

A step AWAY from God compared to ATHEISM?


[/ QUOTE ]

It COULD be. We're speculating here, right? So my thinking is that God seems to be much harder on idolators than atheists in the Bible, but that's off the top of my head. But the emotional attachment to a false religion could be a bigger obstacle to overcome than atheism. Again, just speculating.

[ QUOTE ]

Meanwhile what fits your definition of a "false religion"?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would distinguish between a false religion and a false Christian. A false religion is one that has incorrect doctrine that is of importance to salvation. All religions, even all Christian religions, have errors or have had them in the past.

[ QUOTE ]

What about the guy (if such a person exists) who believes that Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins but specifically stays away from worrying about the specifics that Christians squabble about


[/ QUOTE ]

There may be quite a few people like this. I try to avoid doctrinal disputes myself unless it's fundamentally central doctrine. I don't argue with a RC for instance on transubstantiation. But Mormonism is fundamentally false because they don't accept many Scriptural doctrines and have clearly added many writings and prophecies that are not inspired but which they treat as equal to Scripture.

[ QUOTE ]

Are members of this hypothetical, no name, religion OK in your book?


[/ QUOTE ]

No one needs to be concerned about my book. I don't even have one. The book you want to think about is the Lamb's Book of Life.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Hearing someone base their believe system on a warm, peachy feeling they had while rock-bottom does absolutely nothing to sway my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with that feeling. But we don't base our life commitment on a feeling. Feelings come and go. The Word of God abides forever. It is that which forms the basis of our commitment. That's why the 3 you mention should be rejected. None of them preached or taught according to Scripture.

Paul said "If anyone preaches a Gospel contrary to what I have preached, let him be accursed".

[Lestat]

Forget everything else. What I want to know is:

How is it you can be so sure that YOUR religion is the correct one?

No offense, but it is this type of hard headedness that has caused more wars, death, and hatred, than anything else in history. Most amazing of all, is how such stubborness can stem from not a single shred of factual evidence. It's sad really.

[KeysrSoze]

[ QUOTE ]
[

There's nothing wrong with that feeling. But we don't base our life commitment on a feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]

But people DO. People stayed for years with them, and even gave their lives up in the end for them. You are right, none of them preached or taught according to your interpretation of Scripture, but they had a large following that felt just as strongly and were just as devoted and commited as you. Obviously The Word is not the only thing that can cause euphoric feeling and long term commitment.

[ QUOTE ]
Paul said "If anyone preaches a Gospel contrary to what I have preached, let him be accursed".

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul ... now there's a great model of a man to live by.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I just don't understand the mindset of someone who steadfastly denies reality in the face of scientific fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't deny any scientific fact.

[ QUOTE ]

My question to you is what happens to your line of thinking as these miracles become solved one by one?


[/ QUOTE ]

What miracle has been solved? There is also the distinction between primary and secondary causes. God says not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will. That doesn't mean shotguns don't exist. It means God is in control of whether that sparrow will die at that moment in that way.

No matter what explanations science has for something they can't prove that God wasn't involved. The Bible never says that the only reason the sparrow died was because of God. It simply affirms that God is soverign over the small things as well as the large. If He wants that sparrow to live, and if He has to accomplish it by miraculously protecting the sparrow, that bird is in good shape even if you nuke it. And if He wants it to die, it is doomed.

The Bible has poetical language as well. When it says "sunrise" it means the same thing you do. It's our perspective in view. It's not a scientific statement. So far as I know, the Bible never makes any purely scientific assertion. Also as far as I know, no historical event recorded in the Bible has been shown to be false, many once thought to be wrong have been verified and some have not yet been proven either way.

What scientific fact do you think contradicts the Bible? If your answer is evolution, please define what you mean by that word.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

No offense, but it is this type of hard headedness that has caused more wars, death, and hatred, than anything else in history.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that it's caused more. Hitler, Stalin, Mao,Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander, Genghis Khan - to name a few.

But much wrong has been done in the name of Christ. And it was wrong. Sometimes it was done by people who were not really Christians. Sometimes it was done by Christians who were acting unbiblically. Christians sin, we aren't perfect. But none of the evil to which you refer was done in accordance with Scripture.

[ QUOTE ]

Most amazing of all, is how such stubborness can stem from not a single shred of factual evidence. It's sad really.


[/ QUOTE ]

The evidence for Christianity is overwhelming. Factual and logical.

[ QUOTE ]

How is it you can be so sure that YOUR religion is the correct one?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's clear that if Christianity is true, no other religion can be (ignore Judaism as a special case - it's true as far as it goes and to that extent the same as Christianity). This isn't hardheadedness. It's a case of being mutually exclusive. For all other religions there may be many that are similar. I'm no expert, but Buddhism may have no significant difference from Hiduism, for instance. But the difference between Christianity and everything else is enormous.

Just one example, perhaps the most important. Christ claimed, not to represent or speak for God, but to BE God, and to be the sacrifice for sins, and to be the ONLY way to the Father. Buddha, Confucious, Mohammed, Smith, Nietszche never made this claim.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

But people DO. People stayed for years with them, and even gave their lives up in the end for them.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're referring to the cultists, that kind of makes my point. To be more clear, we should not base our life commitment on an emotion. Those who do will probably not remain as Christians. The feelings are valid but should not be the basis.

[KeysrSoze]

[ QUOTE ]

It's clear that if Christianity is true, no other religion can be (ignore Judaism as a special case - it's true as far as it goes and to that extent the same as Christianity). This isn't hardheadedness. It's a case of being mutually exclusive. For all other religions there may be many that are similar. I'm no expert, but Buddhism may have no significant difference from Hiduism, for instance. But the difference between Christianity and everything else is enormous.

Just one example, perhaps the most important. Christ claimed, not to represent or speak for God, but to BE God, and to be the sacrifice for sins, and to be the ONLY way to the Father. Buddha, Confucious, Mohammed, Smith, Nietszche never made this claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

So 5 blindfolded men walked up to an animal, and try to figure out what it is. One of them touches its flank, feels the short fur, tail, hind quarters and legs and thinks it is a moose. The other touches its front quarter, neck and the base of its antlers, and says its a white-tail deer. the third hears its trot, feels its hoofprints and assumes its an Alaskan carrabu. The forth feels its head and full set of antlers, and guesses its a North American Rocky Mountain elk. The fifth smells its dung, and says "Hey, that smells just like elephant crap, that must be an elephant!". So by your reasoning the fifth guy is correct, because how could his answer be so different from the rest unless it was the truth?

[David Sklansky]

"The evidence for Christianity is overwhelming. Factual and logical."

You realize of course that at least 95% of the world disagrees with you. Including most Christians.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
Hearing someone base their believe system on a warm, peachy feeling they had while rock-bottom does absolutely nothing to sway my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

This definately hit the over on the amount of time before I got this response. Nice job. The title of my post was "How I Became a Christian", not how I stay one.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

You realize of course


[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with a lot. I don't know about 95% or most.

[KeysrSoze]

I'm just saying its nothing new, unique or interesting to me. I could start a thread about how I became a drug addict because I snorted some smack and it felt really good. It wouldn't be that much of a revelation to anyone though. Simpsons did it.

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what explanations science has for something they can't prove that God wasn't involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's just great. An unfalsifiable claim. I guess that means that any attempt to disprove Christianity is doomed from the beginning, by definition. If it's proved then it had to be because god wanted it so.

Your "Paul said this so it's true" statement is just a spiced up version of the tired old "My religion/God is the true one because the bible says it is" question begging argument. You're unwavering belief in what Paul says does not give you the authority to quote it to justify an unfalsifiable claim. It's not a real premise, it's not a real argument.

You've got to know you're not going to convince anyone with half a brain anything using your (il)logic.

By the way, Sklansy, I'm new to this forum and it's the only site I ever go anymore. It's awesome and so are your books.

[Lestat]

You really sum everything up. To me, it is no different than a person who points to a white wall and calls it blue. There is no amount of convincing that can be done to make him see that it is really white.

What's perhaps most ironic, is that I (and most non-believers) have a much more open mind about God and religion. I am very willing to change my views if given a logical reason. People like NeverReady will never change their views no matter what. If their faith one day requires 2+2 to equal five, then they will gladly believe it is five.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
You really sum everything up. To me, it is no different than a person who points to a white wall and calls it blue. There is no amount of convincing that can be done to make him see that it is really white.

What's perhaps most ironic, is that I (and most non-believers) have a much more open mind about God and religion. I am very willing to change my views if given a logical reason. People like NeverReady will never change their views no matter what. If their faith one day requires 2+2 to equal five, then they will gladly believe it is five.

[/ QUOTE ]

and they'll insist that deep down you know 2+2=5 but just wont admit it to yourself.

chez

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
What's perhaps most ironic, is that I (and most non-believers) have a much more open mind about God and religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a stretch.

Here is a thoughtful reply to one of your questions, which maybe you overlooked the reply to.

here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3581824&amp;page=6&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
If their faith one day requires 2+2 to equal five, then they will gladly believe it is five.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the view that seems to be so readily accepted.

Some faiths, if understood correctly (obviously I think mine is the only one that this applies, others can argue their faith, too.) would never (and do not) require one to accept that 2+2=5.

The mundane understanding of certain faiths here is staggering. It is as if I (with limited science knowledge, and I am being hyperbolic here in my example) said to someone, had I never seen an airplane fly: That is ridiculous, you are a fool to suggest machines fly.

One might retort “Well I can prove that machines can fly.” And I can say, not if I do not study your proof or if I refuse to try to understand what you are saying.

Yep, I'm totally open-minded. I even used to be a Christian (or, rather, tried for many years). My long story describing how I became de-Christianized (did I just coin a new phrase?) would make an excellent post here. I happen to believe that my story basically proves Christianity is complete BS (oh, the hubris!), I mean, as far as a proof exists. But I can already hear the Christian responses in my head, "God purposely made you futilely beg for a relationship with him and for his guidance. It was all part of his plan, and you can't disprove that." "Just because YOU couldn't find comfort in Christ doesn't mean anything. Besides, that's probably what he wanted, and you can't disprove that."

Oh yeah, I would also like to know NotReady's opinions on homosexuals. I really just want him to say it's a choice of lifestyle so I can retort with proof that he's 100% wrong. No doubt he'll retort with some biased study proving it's a lifestyle choice (that or more bible passages), then I can retort that now that he suddenly believes in science that it's proven the world is over 5000 years old. Then he'll retort....Oh christ this will never end...

[RJT]

If you were to ask me the question about homosexuality, I would respond with a question. What does science say is the reason some are and some are hetero? Science has not the answer yet. I am quite confident some religions will not add to your discussion.

(I would be curious as to your de-christianization if you are ever interested in posting. I would be very interesting to hear the rest, too - the first "real proof” that Christianity is bogus.)

[Lestat]

Jeff-

I didn't overlook the reply, but found it to be more of the same unsubtantiated rhetoric.

Look, I'm not trying to demean anyone. I am just seeking answers that are derived either from evidence or logic!

Someone said not to bring up the existence of the spaghetti monster or something like that. Well, why does NeverReady get to use the same reasoning that he denies atheists to use when comparing such logic to the existence of such a spaghetti monster, or pixies, for that matter?

We need to use the same logic. This is something that I find theists refuse to do.

Again, I hope my tone doesn't come across as arrogant. I am not trying to belittle anyone. I just want to understand how your logic allows you to accept that it's ok to believe in talking snakes and 900 year old men, but not in the spaghetti monster.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's perhaps most ironic, is that I (and most non-believers) have a much more open mind about God and religion.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a stretch.

[/ QUOTE ]

It absolutely is not a stretch. You see, those that buy into religions will say they 'know' they are right. Some are so brainwashed (or just so full of the holy spirit!) that they believe things proven to not be true (like the world is 5000 years old [I know, a belief not held by all Christians, but those crazies are out there]). Religions like Xianity have canonized closed-mindedness, although to them it isn't called closed-mindedness. It's called the TRUTH (cue loud booming noise and scary sounding organs). Someone like myself, on the other hand, doesn't claim to know absolute truth, so I don't have to be closed-minded. I'm not spoken for. The world is my oyster, baby. And I love oysters.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
My long story describing how I became de-Christianized

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt about that story being tough. I glazed over it in my post but it was hell.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> I think mine is the only one that this applies, others can argue their faith, too.) would never (and do not) require one to accept that 2+2=5. </font>

Snakes do not have vocal chords, hence they cannot talk. Human beings are physically incapable of living to be 900 years old. I can go on and on. Why are these things any different than the acceptance of 2+2 equaling 5?

<font color="red">One might retort “Well I can prove that machines can fly.” And I can say, not if I do not study your proof or if I refuse to try to understand what you are saying. </font>

This makes my point, not yours. Physicists can write down actual REAL equations which PROVE that a machine can fly!!!!! They can sit you down and explain exactly why it is so.

However, I do agree with you that if someone simply tells you the statue of liberty can fly, you shouldn't believe him until you have evidence to believe otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to ask me the question about homosexuality, I would respond with a question. What does science say is the reason some are and some are hetero? Science has not the answer yet. I am quite confident some religions will not add to your discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Er...well any intro to psych class will teach you that people ride a spectrum of sexuality. For instance, Joe Smith might be all about titties and muff, whereas his brother James may have once fantizised about a man's penis , whereas their other brother Lionel might only be able to ever love another man. They're sister might be into both muff and dick. The reason for homosexuality given by any Christian that follows the word of the bible is that it's a lifestyle choice. They could easily not want to love another man. But that is complete BS to anyone that is gay, or anyone that knows a gay person, or anyone that knows many gay people (like me, oh yeah my girlfriend's bisexual). It's just sheer ignorance to say it's a choice. So for someone to say that they know the truth, then say something demonstrably wrong, is quite interesting, to say the least. [censored], my girlfriend wants to use the computer. To be continued.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
(cue loud booming noise and scary sounding organs). /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I would do this on everyone of my posts if I could. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Someone like myself, on the other hand, doesn't claim to know absolute truth, so I don't have to be closed-minded. I'm not spoken for.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you are sure that the Bible is wrong?

I see your point, though and understand how you arrive at your conclusions. Maybe both sides claim to be more open minded than they are.

However as you know having faith, and believing the Bible requires the belief in some absolutes. Example- neither creation nor evolution has been proven, so either stance requires some degree of "ok I accept that as fact".

You can still reserve the right to make a new decision based on new information.

Jeff

[ QUOTE ]
However as you know having faith, and believing the Bible requires the belief in some absolutes. Example- neither creation nor evolution has been proven, so either stance requires some degree of "ok I accept that as fact".

[/ QUOTE ]

That analogy is awful. For one, scientists don't accept unproven theories as facts. For two, evolution as a theory has supporting objective and measurable evidence or data. And lastly, scientific theory does not require belief in any "absolutes."

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored], my girlfriend wants to use the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're among friends, timmy. You can come out of the closet. Just kidding.

I was talking about the causes or homosexuality. What is its cause? And why are some and others not? If science has answered those questions with certitude, I am interested in knowing the results.

My point was that science still doesn't know. Certainly a non Christian is not going to find an answer in Christianity. Even some of us Christians are not in total agreement with some of the our religion's teachings. It is like saying "democracy stinks, cuz blah blah blah".

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Well that's just great. An unfalsifiable claim. I guess that means that any attempt to disprove Christianity is doomed from the beginning, by definition


[/ QUOTE ]

I said God, not Christianity. You can prove Christianity false, even though I think the "falsifiability" mantra has been abandoned. Produce the body of Jesus. Prove the falsity of the documents. Show errors in the Bible. But most atheists admit they can't prove God doesn't exist. Can you?


Evolution by chance is also non-falsifiable.

[ QUOTE ]

It's not a real premise, it's not a real argument.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't offer it as a logical argument. It is a real premise. It's an explanation of what I believe, what I accept as my presupposition. Like yours than reason is absolute. It's not a logical argument, it's an axiom.

[ QUOTE ]

You've got to know you're not going to convince anyone with half a brain anything using your (il)logic.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've said many times I can't prove Christianity is true by logic. I can only show the consequences if it isn't. Like how logic is meaningless if chance is ultimate.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

and they'll insist that deep down you know 2+2=5 but just wont admit it to yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see you've joined Lestat and the others in abandoning debate and going with slurs and ad hominems. I give you credit you held out longer than most.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I would also like to know NotReady's opinions on homosexuals


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a choice and therefore a sin like any other sin. All sin begins with temptation. If there's a homosexual gene, that is the homosexual's temptation - just as adultery and sex outside of marriage is a sin for the heterosexual even though he is born with a sex drive.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

This makes my point, not yours. Physicists can write down actual REAL equations which PROVE that a machine can fly!!!!! They can sit you down and explain exactly why it is so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can a physicist write down how something comes from nothing?

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This makes my point, not yours. Physicists can write down actual REAL equations which PROVE that a machine can fly!!!!! They can sit you down and explain exactly why it is so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can a physicist write down how something comes from nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the science involved in cosmological theory points to the idea that something can indeed come from nothing, I am more apt to change my view that it is impossible than to simply continue to point out it's not possible.

Not only that, but you have theories in cosmology such as the theory that the universe is continually expanding and contracting, or Hawking's view that the nature of time allows for the idea that the universe has simply always been.

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> You can still reserve the right to make a new decision based on new information.
</font>

This was one of my questions.

If science does prove evolution to be true, what then? Would you accept that there couldn't ever have been a time when a male human being was walking the earth without a female, and that females weren't created from this man's rib? Or would you simply continue changing your belief system until you found a way around evolution?

[RJT]

Lestat,

[ QUOTE ]
Snakes do not have vocal chords, hence they cannot talk. Human beings are physically incapable of living to be 900 years old. I can go on and on...

[/ QUOTE ]

I already addressed this when I said and I‘ll paraphrase myself, “ Some (mine for example) Religions, if understood correctly…”.

[ QUOTE ]
This makes my point, not yours. Physicists can write down actual REAL equations which PROVE that a machine can fly!!!!! They can sit you down and explain exactly why it is so.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no “formula” for Religion. Some follow logic to a degree (more logic than most realize).

[ QUOTE ]
I am just seeking answers that are derived either from evidence or logic!

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me save you some time (obviously you weren‘t being literal, but to further your point). Even if one understood the logic of a Religion to some extent (and agreed to its premise), at some point it becomes a matter of Faith. “Faith takes over when reason can say no more.”* Even science has not the answers (positive or negative) in the areas of such things as God/no god, afterlife, etc. Religion attempts to answer these questions (“hypothesize” if you will), science does not.

RJT

*Thomas Merton

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

If the science involved in cosmological theory points to the idea that something can indeed come from nothing, I am more apt to change my view that it is impossible than to simply continue to point out it's not possible.

Not only that, but you have theories in cosmology such as the theory that the universe is continually expanding and contracting, or Hawking's view that the nature of time allows for the idea that the universe has simply always been.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can a physicist write down how something comes from nothing?

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If the science involved in cosmological theory points to the idea that something can indeed come from nothing, I am more apt to change my view that it is impossible than to simply continue to point out it's not possible.

Not only that, but you have theories in cosmology such as the theory that the universe is continually expanding and contracting, or Hawking's view that the nature of time allows for the idea that the universe has simply always been.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can a physicist write down how something comes from nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly, though I'm not sure what you mean by "write down."

Much of the research being done on cosmology does indeed point to there not being anything before the big bang, so, in essence, according to those theories you could say that the universe came from nothing.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Possibly, though I'm not sure what you mean by "write down."


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever the other guy meant concerning why an airplane flies.

[ QUOTE ]

Much of the research being done on cosmology does indeed point to there not being anything before the big bang, so, in essence, according to those theories you could say that the universe came from nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

How? Write it down.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Possibly, though I'm not sure what you mean by "write down."


[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever the other guy meant concerning why an airplane flies.

[ QUOTE ]

Much of the research being done on cosmology does indeed point to there not being anything before the big bang, so, in essence, according to those theories you could say that the universe came from nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

How? Write it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not Stephen Hawking. Call him up and see if he's willing to try to explain it to someone whose dogmatic belief system will preclude him from believing it anyway.

But to the point, I'm attempting to relay to you what the modern view of cosmology is on your claim that something cannot come from nothing. If you want to play games then I will not explain any further.

Edit: Actually, I will not explain further. There really is no point in communicating with a dogmatist. I'm not learning anything from you and you are already set in your myopic ways; communication is pointless.

[NotReady]

Lestat said:

[ QUOTE ]

This makes my point, not yours. Physicists can write down actual REAL equations which PROVE that a machine can fly!!!!! They can sit you down and explain exactly why it is so.


[/ QUOTE ]

I responded with the question about something from nothing. That is all. No game.

[ubercuber]

Wow! Didn't read entire thread, but will. I wanted to comment before going to bed.

First off, thanks for sharing your life so openly. Powerful to read, especially having been there myself.

I won't get into it, to but I had a drug filled past and was a logic based proactive non believer as well. I
could never get why God would want me to shut off my brain and just believe. I found a reason when I needed a group of children to stop asking questions and just listen to my instructions in an emergency situation. I later found myself planning to convince them that sometimes I need them to just trust me and that they don't always need to know what is going on! I immediatly made the connection and abandoned my main issue and told God I'd basically give it a shot. This is getting too long but suffice to say tha the next three months of my life saw changes that I never would have believed would happen...I was being transformed from the inside out. This is how I "just know" that God is for real. I hated that explanation from Christians when I wanted real answers!

I think many don't want to accept God cuz they think they have to sacrifice to lead a Godly life. But take it from someone who missed out on none of the wild times...the stuff God warns against is for our own good. Don't try to imagine "life without...", you have no idea what God can do with your life, don't give up anything but control, He will help you with the rest.

Some poker/God thoughts:

Giving up fast life for "boring life" is like folding Ax...you're giving up junk and avoiding sooooo much trouble.

Faith vs Brain: Does any poker player need to be reminded how badly the brain can work against you? Shut it off for six months on this issue and let God go to work. I was amazed. I used to argue how stupid the whole concept of faith was when considering God designed my thinking system. Now, I really don't care about any of the things that used to trouble me. God delivered, case closed.

What is the EV of non belief? If you are right, so what? If you are wrong, you are screwed. So you will lose the most, and gain the least by non belief, and gain the most and lose the least by belief. (Hoping I just talked my way out of trouble with God for spending waaayy more time reading Sklansky than the Bible.) I know this argument leaves a bad taste the mouths of some, but hey...it is what it is, what good is complaining going to do you...God can be harsh. Deal.

The Rick Warren book is great btw. Also Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

Thanks again for the thread.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

and they'll insist that deep down you know 2+2=5 but just wont admit it to yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see you've joined Lestat and the others in abandoning debate and going with slurs and ad hominems. I give you credit you held out longer than most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't intended as a slur. I was drawing an analogy with your claim that I need to believe or am hardening my heart. Isn't that what you said?

chez

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Produce the body of Jesus. Prove the falsity of the documents. Show errors in the Bible. But most atheists admit they can't prove God doesn't exist. Can you?


[/ QUOTE ]

But you already admited that no evidence could pwersuade you it was the right body and that you were being rhetorical.

and I've explained why I have the best possible evidence that your interpretation of the bible is wrong, although I cant prove to you I'm not lying.

So what possible evidence could persuade you that christianity is wrong?

chez

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> I see you've joined Lestat and the others in abandoning debate and going with slurs and ad hominems. I give you credit you held out longer than most.
</font>

Whoa. I have been careful not to make any slurs, demean, or belittle anyone.

You have to understand how incredibly difficult it is (impossible?), to debate those who abandon logic when cornered, and must resort to things like miracles to tie up their loose ends.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If the science involved in cosmological theory points to the idea that something can indeed come from nothing, I am more apt to change my view that it is impossible than to simply continue to point out it's not possible.

Not only that, but you have theories in cosmology such as the theory that the universe is continually expanding and contracting, or Hawking's view that the nature of time allows for the idea that the universe has simply always been.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can a physicist write down how something comes from nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]


Example:
E = mc^2

So if the nothing is energy, then no problem. To believe energy was always present is no greater a stretch than to believe a supreme being was always present -- in fact, it makes less assumptions.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't offer it as a logical argument. ... It's not a logical argument, it's an axiom.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why debate with you is absolutely futile. And I suggest everyone here stop responding to your posts since you have now declared that the Christian dogma is the starting point of your reasoning not the product. You can't debate someone if you don't share common axioms. Been fun chatting with you, but its pointless now.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So what possible evidence could persuade you that christianity is wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

Prove the falsity of the documents. Show errors in the Bible.

Since it's falsifiable and chance isn't that makes Christianity more scientific than evolution.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
If science does prove evolution to be true, what then?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's "proven" yes. Swithch the question around also.

[bocablkr]

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[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kid,

I don't think you should use sarcasm on this board - most people missed it.

[Jeff V]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving up fast life for "boring life" is like folding Ax...you're giving up junk and avoiding sooooo much trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually being "bored" has been a nice change of pace for a while. glad to hear some of your story, and hope more people hear about it as well.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the EV of non belief? If you are right, so what? If you are wrong, you are screwed. So you will lose the most, and gain the least by non belief, and gain the most and lose the least by belief. (Hoping I just talked my way out of trouble with God for spending waaayy more time reading Sklansky than the Bible.) I know this argument leaves a bad taste the mouths of some, but hey...it is what it is, what good is complaining going to do you...God can be harsh. Deal.


[/ QUOTE ]

I always love this one - I should believe because it is +EV.
You should make your decisions based on the available evidence not because it is a no win situation to not believe. Once again, it proves the courage that an atheist has because he takes his position EVEN though it is -EV (in your words).

[David Sklansky]

"What is the EV of non belief? If you are right, so what? If you are wrong, you are screwed. So you will lose the most, and gain the least by non belief, and gain the most and lose the least by belief"

Although I have decided to stay away from most God arguments nowadays, the nature of this website forces me to refute this particular one. And I should note that many religious people including Not Ready agree with me here.

The notion that you are getting high pot odds when you profess belief that Jesus is the son of God is just wrong. The two main reasons are:

1. It is not clear that the upside is way more than the downside. If, for instance, the God that Jews believe, in is the true one, and if he is angry at those who believe in a fraudelant messiah, we're talking reverse implied odds here.

2. A professed belief based on high pot odds is not a real belief and your hand even if it is the best one, will be declared dead, and thus can't win the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
It's a choice and therefore a sin like any other sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already responded to this, when I first asked. I then responded to the response I knew you were going to give. I think that makes two responses forthcoming (I've lost count). Homosexuality is most definitely not a choice. I understand that casts serious doubt over large parts of the bible, and therefore cannot be true by definition, but it's true. You completely sidestepped that entire post, which was totally intellectually dishonest.

Like I said, sexuality is a spectrum. Some people can be completely turned off by the same sex. Some people have ambiguous feelings about whether or not they could love someone of the same sex. These feelings are not choices, and I KNOW this, to a much larger extent than you 'know' that there are angels and demons and a fiery place where a red man with horns and a pitchfork dwells.

Oh, and your comments on how you can believe that Christianity is false. You've already implied that if it ever is proven false it would be because god wanted it to be proven false. I understand you're going to talk your way out of it by saying "I said god, not the christian god" but since god, by your definition, is the christian god, there's really no way out of your position other than more intellectual (and by saying intellectual I'm giving you more credit than you deserve) dishonesty. You're a complete joke. When I first started reading your posts I thought you were doing a satirical mockery of christians because that's what you came across as doing. That people like you actually exist scares me, as it's the mindset of people like you that crash planes into buildings and cut the hands off of innocent people (a la Christopher Columbus, who we should ALL celebrate). I agree that you should be ignored, as you are completely ignoring us as well as logic.

[NotReady]

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Homosexuality is most definitely not a choice


[/ QUOTE ]

The propensity may or may not be. The decision to engage in it most definitely is.

[ QUOTE ]

You're a complete joke


[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is impeccable, your reasoning superb and your evidence irrefutable.

[Indiana]

Jeff,

Many people like you come to Christ because their lives are in disarray. These people are usually the "best" christians in the church for a while because they find that their new faith in God helps them to wash away their previous problems. You may find yourself volunteering in a homeless shelter, hospital outreach, mission trips, all very good stuff. The problem with all of this is that you have freely accepted Christ without going through the "fear and trembling" salvation process that the Bible discusses. What happens as a result is that your emotional connection to the religion will grow weak and you may grow tired of the whole christianity thing. Most humans are total pieces of crap and you may look around and realize that the people that you looked up to as good christian role models are not such good people after all.

Why am I saying all of this? Because I want you to understand that in order to really commit yourself to Christ in a long-lasting way you must think, yes think, about what being a chrisitan means to you so that when you get tired of the religious game and the fancy sermons that generate million dollar salaries for these guys you see on tv, you will have a grounding that helps you overcome these human obstacles in religion. Get a firm grounding in the Bible and understand the core message of Christ. Believe in christianity because it is the only logical religion and because of what Jesus did and why he came to earth. You learn these things from the bible and by thinking deeply about what you want your life to be, you dont learn them by jumping onto the relgious fad or the church game.

Oh yeah, and don't listen to a bunch of smart people like David Sk. They are simply brainiacs who are religiously and spiritually lazy and are using their strong minds to come up with reasons why they should sleep in sunday morning.

Indy

Well I, as well as about 10 other people here, have used logic to come to the conclusion that you are a joke. I'm pretty sure you're the only one here that hasn't used logic to prove a point. If you'd like to have a poll on the issue on whether or not I've used logic I'd me more than happy to.

Oh yeah, there is a difference between homosexuality and having sex with someone of the same sex. I have female friends that have slept with many other females, but could never love one. Christians say 'homosexuality is a choice and wrong,' which is 100% bullshit. Of course physically engaging in sex is a choice, which is just another way of skirting around the issue. Are you claiming it's ok for a male to love another male? That's heresy! Sounds to me like you're saying that's okay, but it's not okay to physically show that love, which is sadistic, to say the least. Unless you think it's wrong for a guy to love a guy, which would make you seem like a jerkface, since you've admitted it's not a choice. That would be like saying "it's immoral to be black." Or are are you saying "it's okay to be born a certain way, just don't act like you were born that way?"

[RxForMoreCowbell]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, and don't listen to a bunch of smart people like David Sk. They are simply brainiacs who are religiously and spiritually lazy and are using their strong minds to come up with reasons why they should sleep in sunday morning.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

What you've said here is the thing that frustrates me most as a non-believer. If you think any of the atheists/agnostics in here are "lazy" and don't believe because we aren't willing to put in time or effort, you either haven't read any of what we say, or you are an idiot.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So what possible evidence could persuade you that christianity is wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

Prove the falsity of the documents. Show errors in the Bible.

Since it's falsifiable and chance isn't that makes Christianity more scientific than evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give an example of how the bible can be tested to show errors. What could possibly convince you that the bible is fictional?

I take it you no longer believe that the bible makes any claims about my beliefs and have withdraw your claim that I'm in denial. Is that correct?

Does your bible claim that I will be condemned for not believing?

chez

[Jeff V]

Rx did I mention you have my favorite name on 2+2?

I don't think the blanket statements work well either way.

[RxForMoreCowbell]

Just to clear it up my post wasn't against anything you said, I was showing my disgust in the disrespect Indy showed towards non-believers. I don't think any reasonable person who has taken the time to read our posts would hold his view.

And thanks, Christopher Walken rules.

[mosta]

religion is great for many people, probably most.
they should also let them invest their social
security witholdings themselves (please please
please please).

[ubercuber]

[ QUOTE ]
"What is the EV of non belief? If you are right, so what? If you are wrong, you are screwed. So you will lose the most, and gain the least by non belief, and gain the most and lose the least by belief"

Although I have decided to stay away from most God arguments nowadays, the nature of this website forces me to refute this particular one. And I should note that many religious people including Not Ready agree with me here.

The notion that you are getting high pot odds when you profess belief that Jesus is the son of God is just wrong. The two main reasons are:

1. It is not clear that the upside is way more than the downside. If, for instance, the God that Jews believe, in is the true one, and if he is angry at those who believe in a fraudelant messiah, we're talking reverse implied odds here.

2. A professed belief based on high pot odds is not a real belief and your hand even if it is the best one, will be declared dead, and thus can't win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, the privilege to banter with Sklansky is a honor. That said, I think he made some good points, but missed some as well.



I don't profess high pot odds when professing Jesus is Lord.
I am comparing:

Non-belief as Policy vs.
Belief as Alternative Worth Perusing.
(If you are a believer in something else…this isn’t intended to persuade you. PM me and I will get more detailed about how God “showed himself to me”.)
If you pursue, who have nothing to lose (unless you find the wrong messiah as

D.S. points out, but we haven’t lost any ground in that scenario – remember you are a non believer to start with). You potentially have a great deal to gain by giving it a go. +EV
If you refuse, you gain saved effort, and stand to lose a lot if you were wrong.-EV

This argument is intended to force your hand, and should piss you off. I rebelled against it, decided I would make my stand against it. That was a useless decision that I can honestly look back on and say…that’s your version of making a stand? If anyone wants to make a real stand against God they know how to do it! Not showing up for songs and prayers and talking down to Christians as if they don’t understand science is not rebellious, it is a waste of time. Christians do a good enough job looking stupid, just like everybody else.

Your second point is right on target. Understanding that genuinely giving yourself over to God is a smart decision (and one you could back out of…just throwing that out), but it is not enough. You must actually do it.. You give God your “hand” to do what he pleases and you will find that you have not “lost the pot.” Christians as a group are just as representational in our problems as the rest of society…it is not a cure or an instant angel maker. It is a path. Sometimes you will stray from the path, and wish you hadn’t. But the path leads to personal and spiritual growth, and an understanding of ourselves from a perspective much larger than our own. When we see ourselves as God sees us, we can begin to see how He sees others, and we start to feel bad for flippin em the bird, so we vow to try to cut down….God is at work and the life you use to live is going if not gone. I am not going to lie, I spend way too much time trying to enhance my personal short term life and very little preparing for eternity. I equate it to pimping out your courtesy car while your Escalade is on back order.

Please try to remember that you will not find proof that faith works without trying it. Just as I can assure you that peanut butter on French toast, with hot maple syrup is the best damn food item on the planet…you will never know for sure, regardless of the testimonies I line up, that it is really all that. You gonna Google it? Browse through yummy stuff Iverified.com? NO! Go try it.

PM me. Happy to testify to the things I have seen…be warned because I was very different.