View Full Version : when you get f-ed with every step of the way
chopchoi
10-09-2005, 04:35 AM
Today I was playing at a really aggressive 3/6 table, and I couldn't bet without getting raised.
I have 94o in BB. 1 limper, SB calls, I check.
Flop: 8,6,3, rainbow. It checks around.
Turn: 4. SB checks, I bet, limper raises, I fold.
There were a couple of cases where I limped with Axs or QTs, got raised pf, and check-folded after totally missing the flop.
I have Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in CO. It folds to me, I raise, Button calls.
Flop: K,8,7. I bet, Button raises, I fold.
So now I'm suspicious that people are raising me with notheing, and resolve to call down if I have anything.
I have A4 in BB. 1 limper, SB checks, I check.
Flop: J,J,4. SB checks, I bet, limper raises. I call.
Turn: K. River: 7. He bets every street and takes the pot with KTo.
I limp in with A9s.
Flop: A,6,T. I bet and get raised. Turn, 5. I check-call.
River: 9. I check-raise. He 3 bets. I call and he has a set of 6's.
I raise w/ AQ, BB calls.
Flop: Q,5,9. He check/calls.
Turn: 3. He check-raises. I call.
River: 7. He bets, I call, He shows 54o.
I'm Button with AK. CO limped. I raise.
Flop: 8 high. CO bets, I raise, CO 3-bets.
Turn T. CO bets and I fold.
I raise with JJ, button calls.
Flop: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, button calls.
Turn: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I bet, button raises, I call.
River: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, button checks and mucks.
I ended up $75 down after a little more than an hour. It got to the point where I was afraid to bet any flop I missed, because I knew I would get raised. The problem with that is, you only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, so what's the point in raising if you're just going to let your opponent have it when you miss?
I also felt like I could never tell when My hand was good, and so my only option was to call down if I hed anyting at all, and hope my cards held up.
How do I adjust to this type of a table?
[ QUOTE ]
I raise w/ AQ, BB calls.
Flop: Q,5,9. He check/calls.
Turn: 3. He check-raises. I call.
River: 7. He bets, I call, He shows 54o.
[/ QUOTE ]
3-bet turn here if he's loose aggressive, but calling down is fine too as he's giving you $
[ QUOTE ]
I raise with JJ, button calls.
Flop: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, button calls.
Turn: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I bet, button raises, I call.
River: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, button checks and mucks.
[/ QUOTE ]
You could donk bet (ie bet out after calling his raise) the river here.
[ QUOTE ]
I also felt like I could never tell when My hand was good, and so my only option was to call down if I hed anyting at all, and hope my cards held up.
How do I adjust to this type of a table?
[/ QUOTE ]
as you say, heads up, villains don't hit the flop any more than you do. If they are putting more $ in the pot when they are behind you want to play meekly and let them chip spew. If they're not folding (this isn't clear from your post) when you reraise, then do this more with solid hands.
If they are playing 70% of their hands, when you play 30% of your hands you are holding the better hand preflop 80% of the time when you both play (if you want to know the math behind this, just say)
Sklansky's Theory Of Poker (TOP) has a good checklist of how to adjust for certain player behaviors.
[ QUOTE ]
You could donk bet (ie bet out after calling his raise) the river here.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to hijack the post but isn't this a "Stop N Go?"
I think of a Donk-bet as:
Flop: He checks, I bet, he calls. Turn: He bets.
I like to talk about words and be very specific about their meaning and common usage. Please don't be offended. Also, please clue me in if I am off base!
psw
OK, somehow my post above got into the quotes. I am interested in my question though.
psw
MHarris
10-09-2005, 01:56 PM
In response to your terminology question, my understanding has always been that you take the lead on both streets in a stop-n-go, and you only take the lead on the later street when donkbetting.
Stop-n-go: Flop: Hero bets, villain raises, Hero calls. Turn: Hero bets.
Donkbet: Flop: Hero check-calls. Turn: Hero bets.
chopchoi
10-09-2005, 02:46 PM
I've never known the term "stop-n-go" to be used in the context of limit holdem.
As I understand, it is usuallly used in NL tournaments, where you are in the blind facing a raise, and are so short stacked that a re-raise has no fold equity, so you call the raise, intending to push any flop.
E.G. I'm BB with KQ. I have 7 big blinds in my stack, and a player in LP opens for 3 BB. He has to call if I re-raise, since it will only be 4 more BB, and there will be B in the pot. So my best move is to call, a push the flop, hoping he missed and will fold.
chopchoi
10-09-2005, 02:53 PM
Regarding my original post, against these types of opponents, what should I do in the following situations:
1) My opponet has already shown that he will raise my flop bet with nothing. I raise PF with AK, he calls. I miss the flop.
2) Against the same opponent, I flop 3rd pair from BB, and he raises my flop bet.
[ QUOTE ]
I have 94o in BB. 1 limper, SB calls, I check.
Flop: 8,6,3, rainbow. It checks around.
[/ QUOTE ]
i would lead this flop, most of the time ull pick the pot as the flop seems to fit a large number of hands checkable in the bb.
chopchoi
10-10-2005, 11:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding my original post, against these types of opponents, what should I do in the following situations:
1) My opponet has already shown that he will raise my flop bet with nothing. I raise PF with AK, he calls. I miss the flop.
2) Against the same opponent, I flop 3rd pair from BB, and he raises my flop bet.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to harp, but I would really appreciate it if someone would answer this question, because I find myself in this situation at least once a week, and I never know what to do.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding my original post, against these types of opponents, what should I do in the following situations:
1) My opponet has already shown that he will raise my flop bet with nothing. I raise PF with AK, he calls. I miss the flop.
2) Against the same opponent, I flop 3rd pair from BB, and he raises my flop bet.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to harp, but I would really appreciate it if someone would answer this question, because I find myself in this situation at least once a week, and I never know what to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Against bad aggressive opponents I am seeing a showdown with AK if it his heads up. If I hit an ace or a king I put a few more bets in. I am seeing any showdown typically with any pair as long as the board isn't too scary. The great thing about these opponents is that they do the betting for you. The variance can be high b/c you're showing down a lot of hands and even these LAGs get hands sometimes.
It looks like you played the hands well. However, I do think you need to tighten up preflop, give up on marginal blind steals with hands like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and junky bottom pair hands from the blinds when your playing OOP.
bigalt
10-10-2005, 01:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
... give up on marginal blind steals with hands like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm stealing with Q9s every time. Of course, I also have days like the one the OP presented, and really don't think they're avoidable.
Borodog
10-10-2005, 02:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... give up on marginal blind steals with hands like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm stealing with Q9s every time. Of course, I also have days like the one the OP presented, and really don't think they're avoidable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think stealing with marginal hands like this with uber-LAGs in the blinds is like flushing money down the toilet. The big blind is getting a minimum of 3.5:1 on a call, you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time, he has demonstrated that he will put in a lot of money with nothing, and you have a hand with zero UI showdown value. This is not the hand to steal from this guy with. Wait until you have a better holding and let him aggro off his chips to you. You will more than make up for the blinds you don't steal.
ErrantNight
10-10-2005, 02:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have Q 9 in CO. It folds to me, I raise, Button calls.
Flop: K,8,7. I bet, Button raises, I fold.
So now I'm suspicious that people are raising me with notheing, and resolve to call down if I have anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
You jumped to this conclusion way too fast.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... give up on marginal blind steals with hands like Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm stealing with Q9s every time. Of course, I also have days like the one the OP presented, and really don't think they're avoidable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about specific situations like the one OP presents (i.e. against very aggressive opponents) on the button or in the blinds. In that situation I think that while stealing with Q9s is probably still +EV, you're going to be put in tough, high variance situations with a marginal hand post flop.
chopchoi
10-10-2005, 03:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have Q 9 in CO. It folds to me, I raise, Button calls.
Flop: K,8,7. I bet, Button raises, I fold.
So now I'm suspicious that people are raising me with notheing, and resolve to call down if I have anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
You jumped to this conclusion way too fast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I? Then why did jack-face with the KT raise me on a flop he totally missed right after I made those folds?
chief444
10-10-2005, 03:17 PM
Obviously don't fold as much. If someone's trying to win every pot by making you fold then simply show down good aces or better and adjust accordingly as the game goes on if they start playing back less.
HajiShirazu
10-10-2005, 06:30 PM
I have days like this. My first solution is to go to another table, where I hopefully will pick up some better hands and establish the type of image that lets you take it down even on the rag flops. If for some reason I don't do that, I just stick to only raising hands with showdown value and tightening up with other steals, while playing more hands in the blinds, looking to showdown and/or get some bets in if I flop a pair or have an ace on a decent boar and not trying to do things like take the pot away with a draw unless my draw is very strong and he is very likely to be on a bluff.
ErrantNight
10-11-2005, 06:30 AM
learn to pick your spots, dude.
don't bet and fold to a raise very often, and if you feel like people are now playing back at you, by all means call down.
but don't call down with "anything," and don't always just call down.
your initial raise is a bit loose, which is what got you into this mess.
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