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View Full Version : Rarely raising pre-flop in PLO/PLO8B - how EV- is this?


CurryLover
10-08-2005, 11:15 PM
It's clearly 'correct' to raise pre-flop in PL/NL Hold'em, and you very obviously lose out by not doing so in many situations.

However, in PLO and PLO8B do you lose out on much EV if you rarely raise pre-flop? Since all hands in these games are drawing hands etc....

The biggest cash game I play every week is a deep stacked (average stack is around 400BBs and big stacks more than 2,000BBs) PL Dealer's Choice cash game. The most common choice is 4 or 5 card PLO8B but PLO is played a lot too. It seems that I do not raise pre-flop anywhere near as much as I do in Hold'em cash games. I am often playing in raised pots because many of the others do raise a lot pre-flop, but I probably raise less than most of the other players pre-flop. Of course, I play aggressively after the flop.

I am doing well in this game (at the moment) but am relatively inexperienced at PLO and PLO8B. For this reason I have been doing a lot of thinking about just how sub-optimal my play is in this game.

So how bad is it to rarely raise pre-flop in PLO and PLO8B? Is it a reasonable way to play (even if slightly sub-optimal) or are you losing a huge amount of EV playing this way?

RickyG
10-09-2005, 06:00 AM
You might be doing yourself a disservice by limping in late position with your above average hands, but if you play well post flop, then the mistake is not as bad as in holdem, as there is very rarely a hand which completely dominates another.

I hope the answer wasnt so generic as to be useless.

10-09-2005, 06:09 AM
I'm no expert but you fail to do several important things when you don't raise when you should:
a) you get less value from the good hands/situations (as you know a butterfly chip preflop can bring about tornado raises on the river)
b) you let mediocre hands get a cheap shot at the pot
c) you don't thin the field so as to play against the "right" number of opponents for you in the situation.
d) the pot building process is deferred, thus leaving plenty implied odds on the flop. This may or may not be avoidable depending on stack sizes, but if your hand is good but volatile on the flop you don't want being limited in the amounts you can bet (relative to the stacks).

Position is of paramount importance in your decision to raise or not, and raising from early pos should not be frequent, but hardly ever raising from any pos is certainly sub-optimal as you said.

FRC

benkahuna
10-09-2005, 10:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm no expert but you fail to do several important things when you don't raise when you should:
a) you get less value from the good hands/situations (as you know a butterfly chip preflop can bring about tornado raises on the river)
b) you let mediocre hands get a cheap shot at the pot
c) you don't thin the field so as to play against the "right" number of opponents for you in the situation.
d) the pot building process is deferred, thus leaving plenty implied odds on the flop. This may or may not be avoidable depending on stack sizes, but if your hand is good but volatile on the flop you don't want being limited in the amounts you can bet (relative to the stacks).

Position is of paramount importance in your decision to raise or not, and raising from early pos should not be frequent, but hardly ever raising from any pos is certainly sub-optimal as you said.

FRC

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like an expert in your answer. NH.

I'd add that you should raise with a wide variety of strong starting hands if you do reaise preflop.
4 cards ten or higher with a pair and a 2 flush is a hand I like to raise with in either game. In OH8, strong two way hands are also worth a raise for me. A lot of people will put you on AAxx and when you have something else and hit well, you can cause significant damage.

Kurn, son of Mogh
10-09-2005, 10:59 AM
Most PLO strategy books insist that raising in EP is -EV no matter how strong your hand is.

10-09-2005, 03:01 PM
Yes, the hand is not enough in itself -- the situation must be right, too. Being out of position is certainly an uphill battle, so you must have very good reasons to engage. Few, predictable opponents, raises committing you to the pot, or small raises to "juice" the pot but that also threaten a big reraise of yours should someone reraise behind you, are some examples. Do's and don'ts are just what they are, recommendations, but be sure to know what you are doing when you decide to jump over the fence.

FRC

dibbs
10-10-2005, 08:26 AM
I much prefer to limp call in EP even with the strongest of hands.

I enjoy raising in LP with bangin connector hands or a nice fist full of paint, but I prefer just calling with AAxx because no one ever puts you on it. this may be very wrong though.

10-10-2005, 08:53 AM
I will let experts comment on never raising out of position, my point was that this could be justifiable in a game plan, from a larger perspective than just the strength of your hand. This should be a rare thing still, so we are just discussing the difference between "never" and "hardly ever".

FRC

joewatch
10-10-2005, 02:48 PM
I think always limping in preflop is a reasonable game plan. Basically, what you are doing is depending on your postflop play to make $. This is especially good at low-limits because raising almost never serves one of its main purposes, which is to limit the field size. But if players see what you are doing, then it will be -EV since people will always fold when you get involved in the hand. And you will leak money like a sieve with all of the preflop raises that you call. However, at low limits, people are rarely that observant.

If you find your play is profitable without ever raising preflop, I say do it.

beset7
10-10-2005, 07:25 PM
If you win never raising preflop but would win more building pots with strong hands they you are losing money, even if you are winning.

Unabridged
10-11-2005, 12:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Most PLO strategy books insist that raising in EP is -EV no matter how strong your hand is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think raising with ragged aces(that you wouldn't want to limp reraise with) would be fine

joewatch
10-11-2005, 04:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you win never raising preflop but would win more building pots with strong hands they you are losing money, even if you are winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, technically, no. You are just winning less money. That's a lot different from losing money, don't you think?

10-11-2005, 04:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you win never raising preflop but would win more building pots with strong hands they you are losing money, even if you are winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, technically, no. You are just winning less money. That's a lot different from losing money, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, in the sense that you're not paying for your hobby (beyond expenses that is), but "no" in every other aspect. Poker is a long term game, and what you don't lose is as good as a gain at the end of the year, as much as what you don't win (but could have) being equivalent to a loss.

FRC

beset7
10-11-2005, 04:49 AM
maybe it's just semantics but i don't see the difference. When I leave money on the table, I've lost money, even if I'm in the black. Likewise, when I save a bet in a pot i lose, I've won.

BluffTHIS!
10-11-2005, 08:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a long term game, and what you don't lose is as good as a gain at the end of the year, as much as what you don't win (but could have) being equivalent to a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent reply. If you fail to maximize your opportunities to win when you can, this is indeed detrimental to your yearly earn. But there is also a more deleterious effect on your bankroll. That extra money you gain by mazimizing winning situations is often what sees you through a downswing that is not due to playing bad.

I have stated before and still maintain that it is correct to raise preflop in early position for a variety of reasons, assuming that you play well postflop. If you want to take advantage of your opponent's mistakes, then surely you want to give them opportunities to do so for bigger money. If you disagree and think the optimal plo strategy is just to never raise and see what the flop brings first, then you need to read/reread Mason's essays on non-self-weighting strategies in Gambling Theory and Other Topics. The fact that the stacks are very deep does obviously impact your strategy overall, but just because you can't always easily get allin pre or post-flop doesn't mean you shouldn't raise preflop. In fact with really deep stacks I would even welcome getting limp reraised by another deep stack who has aces when I have 4 straight cards or a pocket pair and 2 other good working nearby cards, especially if that player will automatically pot it no matter what comes.

Also, the only way to effectively protect good made hands is to be able to bet the most possible assuming there are not other reasons not to do so. Otherwise you will frequently fall prey to loose passive/aggressive players who call behind you with weak draws for little money and bluff bet the river when a different draw gets there. Of course if you can snap off those bluffs then all the good although you will often then be supplying the implied odds they needed when you call and they in fact have a hand. Many such players however *might* not be willing to do as much of this if it costs them more postflop by virtue of being confronted with bigger bets made possible by preflop raising.

The fact is that you will never maximize your earn in plo without being more aggressive with preflop raises in the right situations. The reason so many players don't like to do it is that they are too weak tight and not confident in their postflop decisions especially when against aggressive tricky players and don't want those decisions to have to be for bigger amounts of money. It should be obvious however, that if you become very good in your decisions, many of which will be player dependent, then you should welcome those decisions being made for larger amounts of money.