deep stack tourney, too agro semibluff??

[pfkaok]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t18744)
MP3 (t31897)
CO (t11309)
Button (t40297)
SB (t49302)
BB (t12245)
UTG (t9244)
Hero (t18155)
MP1 (t15310)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t1200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t1000, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t3600) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t2000</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t16930</font>, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t22530

[Rizen]

Um, yes?

I dislike your play on every street personally. I dislike the PF raise, with a hand like 65s you're hoping to flop a monster, and your UTG+1 raise will probably ensure you go to the flop with only 1 or 2 players. With 65s I'd prefer 4-5 players seeing a flop.

Then on the flop you put your entire yournament at risk while you still held 40 big blinds worth in your stack? I really don't see the point of risking your tournament life on a draw here. I'd probably fold this pre-flop, but if I was to play it I'd certainly be looking to see a cheap flop and hope I hit a monster rather than raising with a hand that is going to be likely in trouble against most others heads up and even if you do hit, will likely be tricky to play post flop.

-Rizen

[Annulus]

Its a gamble. You are hoping he does not have a set, AA, AK, or KK. If he is plays tight he prolly folds all other hands. I don't hate your play, but its not going to work all the time. if called you have plenty outs, runner runner flush is my favorite! Of course table image, tourney stage, etc.., all also play into things.

[pfkaok]

OK, well i admit that the preflop raise might not be all that smart, but i certainly don't think it was that bad a play, and i don't usually raise this up front. and it did'nt have too much to do with the merits of my hand.

i hadn't been raising as much as usual b/c of other factors, and so my preflop raises had usually taken it down or gotten HU.

and yeah, its nice to see a cheap multiway pot, but in these spots when the blinds start getting up there its usually pretty easy to play the hand after the flop. most of the time i'd put a bet if its HU if i thought the bluff is +EV, or i'd check and fold.

as far as this hand, with the 3rd caller in there the pot became big enough that it was an akward size for me to bet and have to face a raise or push, which i'd probably have to call with my OESD.

when the stacks are that size in relation to the pot i like to CR way more than when the stacks are really deep or really short. i'd do that play with a lot of strong hands and very strong draws.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

Its a gamble. You are hoping he does not have a set, AA, AK, or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, well i thouht these weren't too likely since he didn't reraise PF, and i felt he'd have a tough time calling with KQ or QQ-TT.

and yeah, the Back door flush although not much, does add another 1.5-2 outs, which is not meaningless.

basically its a gamble, but i felt it was a profitable gamble, and i enjoy taking those types of gambles. i sometimes get it wrong, but in this spot i felt it was a good +EV play, so i was wondering if others thought so as well.

[Rizen]

Yeah, I've made similar plays if I had reads, but your post didn't say anything about reads or table image, so I just assumed random players. I still personally dislike the play though.

I agree about CRing when the stacks are really deep, but I don't really think your hand falls into the category of very strong draw.

I personally think it's too risky.

[ QUOTE ]
as far as this hand, with the 3rd caller in there the pot became big enough that it was an akward size for me to bet and have to face a raise or push, which i'd probably have to call with my OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the biggest reason I hate your pre-flop raise. Your stack is at a point in the tournament right now where creating 2000+ pots pre-flop puts you in a very akward position. I think it sets you up for very tricky post-flop decisions. Poker is a game of mistakes, and the more times you force yourself into tricky decisions, the more likely you are to be the one to make the mistake. Just my .02

-Rizen

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the biggest reason I hate your pre-flop raise. Your stack is at a point in the tournament right now where creating 2000+ pots pre-flop puts you in a very akward position.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, with only 1 caller its not too hard to bet/fold unless i hit pretty hard or think he's very likely to be bluffing and i have a pair.

and when there's 2 callers usually i just check/fold, but here i felt i had way too good a draw.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree about CRing when the stacks are really deep, but I don't really think your hand falls into the category of very strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

appox. 10 outs isn't strong??

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree about CRing when the stacks are really deep, but I don't really think your hand falls into the category of very strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

appox. 10 outs isn't strong??

[/ QUOTE ]

Strong yes, very strong no.

-Rizen

[pfkaok]

OK, so maybe its Quite strong not very strong, i don't know. whatever it is, i'm not in that bad shape if i get called. almost certainly better than 33%

you might have a point about the preflop raise, but still, after the flop, i really do'nt like that you said this:

[ QUOTE ]
Then on the flop you put your entire yournament at risk while you still held 40 big blinds worth in your stack? I really don't see the point of risking your tournament life on a draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

at least you could say you thought it wasn't a profitable gamble, but the phrase "don't risk your tourney life" is really a pet peeve of mine. i understand that there is some value for just bein alive, but i think thats only in REALLY borderline spots. i could be wrong, and maybe this is very borderline, but it felt correct at the time, and looking over the numbers now i'm quite sure it was pretty +EV.

[Rizen]

Think we're going to have to agree to disagree here /images/graemlins/smile.gif For what it's worth, I do think the play is probably slightly +EV, but given that this is a deep stacked tournament I think you're risking the chance of not getting to take advantage of plays that are even more +EV in the future here.

Also, please realize that just because I don't like the play doesn't make it a bad play, or one that shouldn't be done. I'm by no means an expert, and I will concede that I think there is a good chance the play is +EV, although I think it's only slightly so.

I don't like it, and without a read it's probably not something I would do, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Good luck on the tables.

-Rizen

[MeanGreenTT]

Good to see someone get replies....

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Think we're going to have to agree to disagree here For what it's worth, I do think the play is probably slightly +EV, but given that this is a deep stacked tournament I think you're risking the chance of not getting to take advantage of plays that are even more +EV in the future here.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, well i agree to that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

i think my main problem is i have a hard time quantifying just how much +EV i need to have in order to take a risk, and usually i feel like its not much, esp early on when having a big stack makes things even easier and allows you to take any positive gambles.

the fact that its deepstacked does give your idea more credibility, but honestly i really am just trying to take any edge i can get once the blinds and antees start getting significant.

plus, honestly, this is my first deepstacked one, and its kinda annoying that its only a $30 tourney, and its been going on for 5 hrs. 39 min and we're still not in the money.


GL to you too.