Another thought on the moose post

[kurosh]

I try not to make stupid/useless posts, but I've had a very long day, 3 hours of sleep and I am very [censored] pissed off. [censored], feel free to delete this post if you think it's necessary.

All of you who think hunting is cool need to have your dicks removed. It's soooo awesome to go destroy and kill to make you feel powerful and more like a man. There was such great beauty even 50 years ago and it makes me so god damn sick that you fuckers think it's ok to destroy it to give yourself hard ons. Wow, I'm a [censored] badass. I can go kill animals that don't have one hundredth of my intelligence with a big gun. Gee, wait, I did it with a BOW THAT MAKES ME EVEN MORE OF A RAW BLOODY EAT MEATING MAN. I would have more respect for someone who killed a mentally retarded human. A 1500lb moose? People are amazed BECAUSE HE KILLED IT AND IT WAS THE BIGGEST MOOSE THEY'VE SEEN? GUESS WHAT? THERE WON'T BE ANYMORE BECAUSE HE [censored] KILLED IT!

I am fed up with this bullshit. It is absolutely reprehensible and disgusting. It makes me physically ill to hear about it.

If you are a hunter, I hope you die an untimely and horrible death.

[daryn]

what if they eat the meat? come on man, that's what life is all about. death. you have to kill things to live, whether it's vegetables or animals.

[Joshssj4]

Everyday all of us contribute to the deaths and sickness of thousands of animals. Hunting is not a threat, there is much more serious issues to worry about as far as animals and environments are concerned.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate hunting, but if you're getting so worked up over this, you should take a better look at the world around you.

[kurosh]

I realize you have to kill things to live. I eat meat. I love eating meat. But when you turn it into a sport and kill things for the pleasure of killing things, then you are a despicable excuse for a human.

There is no *need* to kill the animals to eat their meat because there's plenty of it already around. If you go hunting to eat, then fine. I'd be relatively ok with that. I don't think his intent was to get food though. Even then, leave the [censored] monster one alone.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
what if they eat the meat? come on man, that's what life is all about. death. you have to kill things to live, whether it's vegetables or animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

not often i find myself agreeing with Daryn, but he's right.

Hunting IS reprehesible as a sport. Thereis no reason to kill another living creature "for the fun of it."

Hunting for food is different. No, we don't "have" to hunt in order to survive anymore, thanks to the local grocery store.

But we doeat meat, and meat was once a living creature, Sparky. Sorry to be a kill-joy. I think the OPs original post is stupid, but if he's a vegetarian at least, I'd have some respect for his views. If he eats ANY meat whatsoever, he's an ignorant hypocrite.

[kurosh]

First of all, hunting is a HUGE threat. Elephants, tigers, fish, several extinct species whose names I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to research. Any of that ring a bell?

Secondly, even if it wasn't, my point is, killing for your personal pleasure makes me want to kill you.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no *need* to kill the animals to eat their meat because there's plenty of it already around. If you go hunting to eat, then fine. I'd be relatively ok with that. I don't think his intent was to get food though. Even then, leave the [censored] monster one alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I am not a proponent of hunting (in fact even though I grew up surrounded by the culture of it in Alaska, I'm strongly against it) I think your argument here is poor.

Analogously, perhaps, there are other ways to obtain extensive amounts of income than playing a game which gives you the opportunity to take it from those dumber than you and a decent majority of which likely can't afford the losses, etc.

[Joshssj4]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, hunting is a HUGE threat. Elephants, tigers, fish, several extinct species whose names I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to research. Any of that ring a bell?

Secondly, even if it wasn't, my point is, killing for your personal pleasure makes me want to kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hunting illegally and hunting legally are ENTIRELY different things. Hunting LEGALLY poses no threat, because it is done in a manner which will allow the species population to remain sustainable.
Hunting is just a direct way of killing animals. You probably get pleasure out of many various things that contribute to the deaths of animals. So what makes you better than these hunters? That you do it non-chalantly?
They're proud of their kills because of the sport involved, not at the notion of taking an innocent life.

I want to make it really clear though that I am absolutely against hunting and think it's disgusting. I'm just trying to play the devils advocate of your completely unsound argument.

[kurosh]

Not analogous. Money is not plentiful. You can always use more money. Not so with food.

You ever seen a bird dog in action dude? I knew some guys who went bird hunting just to let the dogs work. They have killed many birds so killing the birds had long ago lost it's allure, but they loved to work the dogs and the dogs lived for the hunt, whether a bird was killed or not. Ego had nothing to do with it. They grew up with it thats all.

polltard

[kurosh]

I am about to pass out from lack of sleep. Whenever I wake up, I will renew my anger and respond. Hopefully someone will take my place until then.

I made no distinction in my OP between legal and illegal.

So I get pleasure out of things that indirectly contribute to the deaths of animals? Ok? An exec at NBC fucks his mom and comes up with an idea for a new show. You love the new show. You have indirectly gotten pleasure from a guy [censored] his mom. And yes, it does make me better because I am not directly doing it. I would rather buy a fur coat than kill and skin something. It's not a whole lot better, but it is better.

The sport IS killing.

Killing for fun is hard to deal with. I don't condone that.
But, I understand the fascination with hunting. Once upon a time, to be a good hunter was part of what made a man. It made him a good provider.

Of course now, meat comes in cellophane. People don't think twice about where it comes from, and what must happen for it to appear on the dinner plate. Losing touch with that reality has really hurt society. Americans have really lost touch with food chain that supports them.

[nicky g]

"They grew up with it thats all."

That's about the worst justification for anything.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are a hunter, I hope you die an untimely and horrible death.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have never hunted nor do i want to, but if people want to feel powerful and "more like a man," hunting does that for them, and they don't see any great loss to nature by killing animals, i don't see any reason they should stop just because people like you think the killing of animals is so tragic.

[Joshssj4]

[ QUOTE ]
I am about to pass out from lack of sleep. Whenever I wake up, I will renew my anger and respond. Hopefully someone will take my place until then.

I made no distinction in my OP between legal and illegal.

So I get pleasure out of things that indirectly contribute to the deaths of animals? Ok? An exec at NBC fucks his mom and comes up with an idea for a new show. You love the new show. You have indirectly gotten pleasure from a guy [censored] his mom. And yes, it does make me better because I am not directly doing it. I would rather buy a fur coat than kill and skin something. It's not a whole lot better, but it is better.

The sport IS killing.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol. The distinction in the OP was killing moose, which is legal, in your example in your second post the correlation you made between hunting and animals population was through elephant, tigers, etc. This is illegal.

[Peter666]

Killing for fun is fun, and that's good enough reason to do it to inferior species.

[ QUOTE ]
"They grew up with it thats all."

That's about the worst justification for anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't justifying it, I was merely pointing out that their hunting had nothing to do with ego... they grew up in a hunting community and it was simply a normal part of there
lives...hunting that is. The Inuit people of Alaska grow up with hunting, it is NORMAL to them; do they have to justify it to you?

polltard

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]

Hunting illegally and hunting legally are ENTIRELY different things. Hunting LEGALLY poses no threat, because it is done in a manner which will allow the species population to remain sustainable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In fact, hunters are far more likely to be out in state parks, for instance, than the general population. They're probably much more interested in conservation than you think, and could easily be made great allies for green movements.

Ad hominem attacks are not going to win anyone over.

[Stuey]

After reading this post I am even more impressed that you were able to convince your family and friends that you were going to fight a dog for money! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Things that seem bazaar become ordinary if you do them. Stop eating meat and you will wonder why you ever ate it in the first place. Start hunting and you will be ashamed at how much you like it. You become what you do.

What is right and what is wrong is only one person’s opinion based solely on what they are currently doing and what the majority of people in the society they belong to are currently accepting as normal.

[Phoenix1010]

I didn't want to make any more posts like this for a while but...

I agree with the OP. The recent thread made me think about. You go out searching for the most magnificent creature you can find so you can kill it. It just doesn't seem right. I can see the motivation to show your skills, but the whole bloodlust of it seems kind of disturbing. How you can completely ignore the pain inflicted on the innocent animal, and the value of it's life, for the sake of your enjoyment is beyond me. I don't care for justifications (it's natural blah blah), the motivations don't make sense.

BTW, obviously if I had to compare a hunter and a factory farmer, I would say the hunter is the more moral individual. Likewise, you can debate all day about who's right between the guy who buys his meat in packages and the guy who hunts his with a bow. It's more complicated than you might think, the super market guy isn't faced with the knowledge of what went into making that package, everything about our society's food service is built to keep him from thinking about his guilt. The hunter has the blood on his hands. Doesn't matter to me. Just don't eat meat. It's healthy, it will help the environment immensely, and we won't have to keep causing such incredible and unncecessary pain to creatures who would like nothing more than to mind their own business.

Those are my thoughts on the issue, I will respect anyone who disagrees intelligently.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hunting illegally and hunting legally are ENTIRELY different things. Hunting LEGALLY poses no threat, because it is done in a manner which will allow the species population to remain sustainable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In fact, hunters are far more likely to be out in state parks, for instance, than the general population. They're probably much more interested in conservation than you think, and could easily be made great allies for green movements.

Ad hominem attacks are not going to win anyone over.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really true. Organized hunting groups are one of the biggest allies to environmental organizations. I have a lot of friends who are hunters as well. As Stuey said, it has a lot to do with how you were brought up, hunters can be good people as well. I just think the activity is reprehensible.

[KaneKungFu123]

Moderator(s) notified In a moment you will be automatically returned to the forum.

(just joking, not really)

[rusellmj]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize you have to kill things to live. I eat meat. I love eating meat.

[/ QUOTE ]


So what you really want is to live a sanitized life in denial about how the animals you consume met their demise? As long as your belly is full you could really care less about the dispicable treatment some animals get in our factory farm system.


[ QUOTE ]
There is no *need* to kill the animals to eat their meat because there's plenty of it already around.

[/ QUOTE ]


Please read this sentance again and think about it.



The guy in the photo went out and worked for this. It'll feed his family well and I'm glad for him.

Save the poorly thought out rants for drunk girls. Bigger payoff.

[Pinga]

You just lost your food privileges if there's a disaster.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Not analogous. Money is not plentiful. You can always use more money. Not so with food.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are other ways to obtain the same amount of money that don't have negative consequences.

[stabn]

http://www.einsteins-emporium.com/life/specimens/hides/images/lh310-gr.gif

[Sephus]

once again, i have no interest in hunting at all, but i suppose many hunters place a very low value on the value of the life of an animal, and can rationalize away the pain involved by considering that all over the world animals are being killed (painfully) at any given moment. being killed and eaten is a natural part of being a predated animal.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
So what you really want is to live a sanitized life in denial about how the animals you consume met their demise? As long as your belly is full you could really care less about the dispicable treatment some animals get in our factory farm system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently.

Kurosh, I get your point about the motives of some hunters -- the idea of killing animals as purely "sport" disturbs me -- but hunting can and does serve other purposes. For example, I feel much better about eating meat that I've hunted than I do about eating meat raised in animal factories. The fact is that if I'm going to eat meat, I'd rather the animal lived a natural life, either in the wild or, at the least, on an organic farm free of pesticides, hormones, and ridiculous levels of antibiotics.

Secondly, hunting often controls the populations. Overpopulation can result in starvation if the species outgrows its food sources, it can result in diseases, it can result in increased car accidents, etc etc.

Like I said, I understand your distaste for the "sport hunter mentality," but that's about it. You seem to think that just because you don't actually see or raise animals in a factory setting that that means you're not at all responsible for buying it. This would be true if there were no other options available, but that's not the case (of course, this means you have to venture into hippie Whole Foods stores).

I've eaten meat from all three of these sources, so it's not like I'm trying to talk you into hunting or buying natural/organic foods, or going vegetarian. I just think it's hypocritical to rant about how inhumane it is to hunt a deer because there's "plenty of meat to go around" thanks to an INCREDIBLY inhumane animal factory system that is much worse on animals than a slug to the head is. Not to mention that those conditions definitely affect the quality of the product -- you can't tell me that a chicken raised in a tiny pen full of its own [censored] is going to taste as good or be as healthy as, say, a pheasant or game hen shot in the wild.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
once again, i have no interest in hunting at all, but i suppose many hunters place a very low value on the value of the life of an animal, and can rationalize away the pain involved by considering that all over the world animals are being killed (painfully) at any given moment. being killed and eaten is a natural part of being a predated animal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you eat meat? I'm just curious, because you sound like a vegetarian (which is totally cool by me). At least I hope you are, because if you're not, your logic sucks.

The moral difference between buying meat at a supermarket and killing the animal yourself is pretty negligible. Would you say that murder represents a lack of respect for human life, but ordering a hit on someone is fine? If you want an analogy, that's it right there. Either way, an animal dies so you can eat meat -- the only difference is, in one case you're paying someone else to actually kill the animal so you can live in denial.

(not necessarily addressed to Sephus, since I speculate Sephus = vegetarian)

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
you can't tell me that a chicken raised in a tiny pen full of its own [censored] is going to taste as good or be as healthy as, say, a pheasant or game hen shot in the wild.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't tell me that if I placed two cuts of chicken in front of you, one "free range" and one "normal grocery store," that you could tell a difference.

Ditto goes for the "healthy" argument. Until you can come up with better evidence than the FDA, you have no basis for supposing one type of chicken is more harmful to your health than the other.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can't tell me that a chicken raised in a tiny pen full of its own [censored] is going to taste as good or be as healthy as, say, a pheasant or game hen shot in the wild.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't tell me that if I placed two cuts of chicken in front of you, one "free range" and one "normal grocery store," that you could tell a difference.

Ditto goes for the "healthy" argument. Until you can come up with better evidence than the FDA, you have no basis for supposing one type of chicken is more harmful to your health than the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I don't know if I could or not. I've never tried it. I wouldn't be suprised either way.

2) I'm unsure if you're insinuating that the FDA has said that mass-farmed animals are AS healthy as "naturally" farmed animals, but I doubt they have. Rather I think you're saying that they've declared mass-farmed animals as "safe to eat," which is not the same as "the healthiest option."

Even if they have, the method of farming animals in factory like conditions is new enough that the FDA can only have studied short-term effects. Long term, we don't know whether meat farmed in that way is as healthy as meat raised in cleaner, more natural conditions.

If you have links to studies, please share them because I'm legitimately interested. But I included the taste and health parts as secondary to my argument about hunting being less objectionable morally than is buying meat from animal factories. That was really the main point of kurosh's OP that I objected to -- the idea that hunting for meat is objectionable because you're doing the killing, but that buying/eating meat is completely okay.

[HopeydaFish]

I agree a lot with a lot of what you say about the mentality of those who hunt. The idea of killing a beautiful animal (or even a not-so beautiful animal) "for fun" is disgusting.

I remember watching a news story about the annual bear hunt where I live, and I was sickened by it. The bear hunters came in two categories. The first category were the hunters that would hunt with dogs. They'd let the dogs run out into the forest (and this was usually on private land, where the owner of the land had been "seeding" the land with food to attract bears). The dogs would sniff out a bear, and then chase it up a tree. The hunters would then stand around the bottom of the tree and shoot the terrified animal so that it would fall dead from the tree. They'd then give each other high fives and had the rest of the day to spend drinking.

The other group of hunters was even worse. They were mostly fat businessmen from Boston and NY who would pay a few thousand dollars to sit in blind waiting for a bear to wander up and eat out of a trough so that they could blow its brains out. The trough would be filled every day for weeks with food (by the owners of the "hunting" camp) so that the bears would become accustomed to eating out of it. The fat businessmen would spend the day drinking and yapping until a well-fed bear would come waddling out of the woods to get its daily free meal. Again, there was much joy and high-fiving every time a bear was shot. "Fish in a barrel" is the image that kept coming to mind.

These guys weren't eating the bear meat, they were there to get a trophey head or a bearskin rug to decorate their den with.

The arguments that people make along the lines of "Well, if you eat me, you're a hypocrite" are the standard fare of the pro-hunting crowd. I don't take any pleasure in the fact that farm animals are killed to supply us (omnivores) with meat. I'm not out there killing the pigs, chickens, and cows myself *for fun*.

That being said, in some instances hunters provide a necessary service in that they help control overpopulation of certain species. In many instances, certain species have no natural predators to keep their populations in check. Their traditional predators were *hunted* to extinction over the last couple hundred years, and without present-day hunters culling their numbers, their populations would explode. Of course, I still think the people that go out and want to do the actual killing have a little too much bloodlust for my liking.

[vulturesrow]

I dont know how to say this nicely, so I wont. You are a [censored] retard. I love you how you try to disassociate yourself from the killing of the meat that you like to eat. I know this has already been touched on, but allow me to reiterate. Hunting for food is a lot more humane than than how animals get treated in our factory farm system. I am about as far from a fan of PETA as you can get and some of the images I have seen make me sick to my stomach. Check out factoryfarming.com if you are interested in the process that provides you with your non-hunted meat and then tell me how [censored] morally superior you feel.

[kurosh]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that I said I think KILLING FOR MEAT IS OK. I also think killing for population control is ok. The only thing I am against is killing for sport and fun. For the ones calling me a retard, learn to [censored] read.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that I said I think KILLING FOR MEAT IS OK. I also think killing for population control is ok. The only thing I am against is killing for sport and fun. For the ones calling me a retard, learn to [censored] read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you made a lukewarm statement about hunting for food, which was more than outweighed by the rest of your vitriol. At least have the guts to stick to your guns.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I also think killing for population control is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey kurosh, I'm going down to the shops, want me to get you some Soylent Green? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
what if they eat the meat? come on man, that's what life is all about. death. you have to kill things to live, whether it's vegetables or animals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd guess only a small amount of hunters kill primarily for food, though many don't mind the accidental byproduct of food.

What bothers me most is that the person making the original post that has spawned these other posts says his dad is going to kill a rare ram. Just what needs to be done -- kill rare or endangered things. This is the psychology hunting is really about, despite all the elaborate words thrown up in support of it or anyone's right to do it.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me most is that the person making the original post that has spawned these other posts says his dad is going to kill a rare ram.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought this.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me most is that the person making the original post that has spawned these other posts says his dad is going to kill a rare ram. Just what needs to be done -- kill rare or endangered things. This is the psychology hunting is really about, despite all the elaborate words thrown up in support of it or anyone's right to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

have you ever hunted? you sound as well informed on hunting and hunters as Tom Cruise is on Psychiatry.

[Blarg]

That post made no sense.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
That post made no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It made perfect sense, actually. I even read it twice, and it still made sense.

[Pinga]

[ QUOTE ]
All of you who think hunting is cool need to have your dicks removed.
If you are a hunter, I hope you die an untimely and horrible death.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that I said I think KILLING FOR MEAT IS OK. I also think killing for population control is ok. The only thing I am against is killing for sport and fun. For the ones calling me a retard, learn to [censored] read.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's comforting. I like my dick.

Someone took a schwack off it when I was little but I still have most if it.

[Argus]

I've read all three of the hunting threads and I cannot believe that the point I'm about to make hasn't been mentioned yet. I hope I just missed it, because it's fundamental to countering the kneejerk argument many posters seem to have against hunting. The point I'm about to make applies only to managed legal hunting - I am definitely against poaching and the hunting of endangered/low population species.

Animals' populations cycle. They are highest in the summer, and they decrease in the winter, because their habitat can sustain fewer animals during the winter. Under a managed hunting program no more animals are killed than would die during the low population season anyway. These animals aren't wasted, and even if they are killed for sport they were destined for death anyway. There simply wouldn't be enough resources (usually food) to sustain them.

Hunters are often among the most ardent environmentalists, because when habitat is encroached by humans they lose their opportunity to hunt and enjoy the outdoors. Hunting is about far more than killing an animal for pleasure - it's about enjoying nature, developing a greater understanding of our place in the food chaing, and having fun. There are many positive reasons to hunt - at the risk of sounding trite, perhaps as many reasons as there are hunters.

That man isn't wasing a moose - he's using it. He's eating the meat, likely taking the head as a trophy, and also probably using the hide for leather. To suggest that this man has done something wrong or has sinned against nature is ignorant. Try thinking instead of saying, "Animals are cute and nature is important. Killing is bad. Don't kill the pretty animals."

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, it does make me better because I am not directly doing it. I would rather buy a fur coat than kill and skin something. It's not a whole lot better, but it is better.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's WORSE, because the fact that you disassociate yourself from the process means that you indirectly conttibute to more of it than you otherwise would if you had to do it yourself.

Would you eat AS MUCH meat if you had to kill it all yourself?

Would you wear fur (instead of cotton or wool) if you had to skin it yourself?

Would you eat as much chicken if you had to wring every chicken's neck?

I'll bet you wouldn't.

Therefore, by removing yourself from the actual process, yet supporting it financially, you actually do cause more of it than you would otherwise.

The same of course holds true of wearing cotton or wool: by buying it you support the process of harvesting and weaving it.

So your statement is based on emotion rather than reason. Think about it.