QJs...a tactical play gone sideways

[bernie]

i limp in MP after a couple limpers with QJs

sb raises, 5 or 6 see the flop.

flop J Q 5 two tone, not my tone

sb bets, 2 callers i call knowing basically what this player has and he will bet the turn. 1 calls behind me. 5 to the turn.

turn Q

hmmm...sb bets, 2 folds, i call, 1 caller behind me.

river blank, dammit

sb checks, i bet, he calls with KK.

some will say to raise the turn, i chose not to since 2 guys folded. they call, im raising. but i dont want to shut the guy behind me out. so i went for the overcall instead. hoping he may catch his hand if he's drawing. remember, he's already making a mistake calling the single bet if he is on the draw.

anyways...

also, many players on this table would play a FH by raising the turn. so there was a chance i couldve killed my action on the turn. another factor in calling the turn here...

b

[pufferfish]

i limp in MP after a couple limpers with QJs

sb raises, 5 or 6 see the flop.

flop J Q 5 two tone, not my tone

sb bets, 2 callers i call knowing basically what this player has and he will bet the turn. 1 calls behind me. 5 to the turn.

You don’t really want 5 seeing the turn with a 2-flush do you? Let alone SB may think you are pushing a draw and re-raise. Cut the field, don’t rely on filling-up to win this hand.

Oh, well anyway, that’s my opinion. Have a nice MD weekend.

TC,
pf

[Nottom]

I'm not nearly as upset at the turn call as I am by the flop call with the flush draw on the board.

[Homer]

Calling the flop with the intention of raising a blank on the turn is a fine play. I don't like your call on the turn, though. Raise and charge your opponents to draw. If SB is on a draw he will certainly call as he has already put in one bet. You might get lucky and the player behind you will call two cold on a draw, or with a Jack or Queen (might even reraise with a Queen depending on kicker strength).

-- Homer

[Bob T.]

Whenever the flop is two tone, I like to raise my made hands in late position, because I will also be raising a lot of draws in late position, so I need to play this hand the same way, to reduce the amount of information that my opponents can get from my play.

The other advantage to that play, is that the early position bettor, might be afraid to give you a free card on the turn, so he might three bet the flop, or, might stop and go, so that you don't get the free card, but in this case, it would only allow you to make a bigger pot.

If I didn't raise the flop, and there are certainly arguments for playing it that way, I would raise the turn, because if the remaining player is drawing, it is my last chance to charge him for drawing dead, and I want to get the most possible out of him, unless he gets there on the river, and then hopefully, I bet, he raises, and I get to three bet.

[Eric P]

call with raise on the turn is not a fine play. there are four or five other players and top two, while obvoiusly very good, is not so strong that it can afford to be slowplayed with a two flush. when a T comes and the guy with TT beats you, you will feel dumb, or when the guy with KK probably would have capped with you, along with a drawer who won't fold his nut draw only end up putting in 2 1/2 bets instead of 4-5 you will also feel like you didn't do something quit right. The point is with that many people yo uare bound to get callers, raise this flop always.

[rigoletto]

Preflop: fine, but i's beneficial to sometimes reraise here with so many in.

Flop: raise, your plan to raise the turn is not bad, but you have a big drawing board. A raise here can be read as top pair and sb might reraise making the rest pay dearly for the draws.

Turn: I think it's fine to just call here and get the overcall(s) and the bets on the river.

[bernie]

"call with raise on the turn is not a fine play. there are four or five other players and top two, while obvoiusly very good, is not so strong that it can afford to be slowplayed with a two flush."

and to the others who think it is horrible to do this...

it is actually a fine tactical move to wait. if you dont understand it, dont blindly condemn it. my raise isnt getting anyone out who has even a remote draw. this is one reason to play it this way. to save a bet should a scare card come. if one doesnt, then you charge the draws a double bet on the turn.

i know the sb has KK or AA. so a case can be made to raise the flop hoping to get 3 bet since i will look like im on a draw. that is a valid case. but it is optional to do. in that case, id have called his 3 bet trying to make him lead on the turn if a blank hit. i chose to play it the other way. however, players were slowing down at this point when i would show action. so he couldve easily stopped betting if i raised. (i didnt say he was a great aggressive player)

"when a T comes and the guy with TT beats you, you will feel dumb"

i wont feel dumb. he should be folding to a single bet on the flop anyway. i want him to call the single bet for a possible 2 or 1 outer. he's already being charged. and it is a mistake for him to call.

if a caller before me has a gutshot and the sb doesnt reraise, he has an easy call. and close to right odds to call a single turn bet.

another point about the flop....a flush draw is making money here and i could be a dog to the field at this point. even a st8 draw is making money. there is already a bet, so there is no free card.

again, this hand could be played both ways. but to 'always' play it one way, i think, is wrong.

remember the pot is 15-1 when it comes to me. if i raise, they can figure the call at about 20-2 or 10-1 since the players already in will surely call. many times your just making the turn call very easy for them. even if they have a gutshot (though 1 out is tainted, but if they hit it, they should be able to collect 4 BB if they hit it on the turn to make up for the overcall) or mid pair to hit their overcard kicker or trips. no matter how you bet the flop, the turn card is coming. and they are right to call for it. evenif i raise. and no, youre not always charging the max by raising the flop.

raising the flop is fine, but it's not always the 'only' or 'best' course of action. here it was optional.

however, looking back, i think i shouldve raised the turn and hope they would only put me on trips. i think that's where i missed the bet. even if 1 guy folds.

thanks for the feedback...

b

[bernie]

i like your thinking on the flop, and it did cross my mine. (see comments response)

this also applies to the turn where the draw may still think his hand is good if he hits since i may only have trips and may look like a protection raise.

b

[bernie]

given the players in between us preflop, the reraise did cross my mind. though it may have slowed KK down a little more during the hand. they got a little timid when i was aggressive in a hand. so the post flop would have played quite differently i think. i kinda knew i was behind when the sb raised, though. so i wanted to see the flop cheap as possible at that point. if it were an LP who raised, id have been much more inclined to reraise it though. if the player wasnt a very tight raiser, that is.

flop (see my comments response)

b

[pufferfish]

Calling the flop with the intention of raising a blank on the turn is a fine play.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but the problem I have with the play is the sheer number of callers. With fewer I like it, but…

Maybe I just don’t have the “guts” to do it with this many.

If someone makes a mistake by folding/not folding to my raise, that’s OK by me. I want to cut the field, bawk-bawk (the sound a chicken makes - ;-)).

What if a non-blank hits the turn and a caller “wakes-up”? Now what? Can if ever give up before the river?

End rambling…

pf

[rigoletto]

i kinda knew i was behind when the sb raised, though. so i wanted to see the flop cheap as possible at that point

It's inconsequentail wether you're behind preflop when you decide to 3-bet. The purpose of 3-betting preflop here is to tie people to the pot if you hit the flop hard.

[bernie]

your raise on the flop isnt protecting anything. nothing. it's helping others gain odds for the turn call. youre not cutting anything in the field that has a decent draw against you. you want the 2 outers to call the single bet. theyll be making a mistake in doing so. (see comments)

if a 'caller' wakes up and raises on this table on the turn when a blank hits, it's very likely given this group that theyd have a set. remember, i knew the sb was going to bet again on the turn.

b

[bernie]

when i say behind, i mean that if i hit a top pair, ill still be behind. i need 2 cards to hit my hand.

but sometimes, depending on the table, you dont have to make the pot big to tie them to it.

beings that i raise with alot of stuff, i go that way instead of limp reraising. which i do rarely. though, this wouldve been a fun place to do it

b

[rigoletto]

this wouldve been a fun place to do it

Fun is a good enough reason for me /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Net Warrior]

I like Bob T's thinking here. My inclination is to "always" raise the flop here. I usually don't raise my draws in late position because I like to keep my SD low. I'll consider raising those draws now since making my value bets harder to read is a more worthwhile goal and should be a nice +EV addition to my game.

[bernie]

you dont like free cards?
give me a nut flush draw and ill be capping. there's alot of +EV in raising draws. some for even jamming. your actually losing some chips by not doing it at times

on top of that, it is a great way to disguise your hand as it puts that many more hands that they can put you on.

like when you flop the nuts, you want to bet where you would bet many hands. not do strong moves to define your hand and kill the action.

think of the hands you jam the flop with, then add a couple draws. look at how many more options you have.

and this really doesnt hurt the SD. it maximizes your return on the hand.

b

[Eric P]

You are right, I digress. However, I would tend to agree that your raise won't get anyone with a draw out, but at the same time that is my argument for doing it. If you plan on folding when the flush appears, then this could be the best play indeed. But in low limit play It always seems to me then trouble comes when i get tricky, or i just miss bets since they would have called anyway.

[bernie]

if the flush appears, i can still call 1 bet to the river easily given the size of the pot. but i can fold to signifigant action.

youre hand basically turns into a gutshot str8 to the nuts. just one way of thinking about it.

b

[Louie Landale]

Flat calling figuring to raise on the next round is a sound idea when you are very confident you will only get to raise once more this hand. That's not so on this hand. I think you should raise ON the flop. If he's assertive he'll 3-bet his AA or KK and then you get to call figuring to raise the turn.

And all of that is beside the point that you are in a dangerouos flop and surely SOMEONE or two have gut draws, even the player behind that you are letting in.

- Louie