idiot end of draw, backs into top pair

[Wynton]

First orbit, so no real reads. But table looks passive overall. Was turn an obvious raise? Were any streets ok?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero has Kh7h on the button.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (7.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

[ArturiusX]

I don't raise this turn, too many bad river cards, and we may be behind. Calling down is good here.

[krishanleong]

I definitely raise that turn.

Krishan

[Digs]

I raise/fold the turn.

The flush hitting makes a 3bet out of 2 pair unlikely and we're charging the oesd and flush draw more to hit the river.

Plus this guy usually just has a ten

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

I raise/fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, I raise call and fold the river only if it looks bad.

Krishan

[TStoneMBD]

well played

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely raise that turn.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a raise in this hand, I'd say its on the river.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I definitely raise that turn.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a raise in this hand, I'd say its on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you can trap a player who is likely drawing on the turn.

Krishan

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely raise that turn.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the turn raise because it's the BB.

Hypothetical: Let's say the villain was UTG with stats 50/20. So he's more likely to have 2-pair and suiteds. Do you still raise the turn? I'd probably call.

[Wynton]

I think I should have raised the turn because it seems like the bb was betting the flop with either a made pair lower than Kings, or on the draw. The same might be said of the third player in the hand. Because there are a couple of draws out there, and the turn didn't necessarily help, a raise seems reasonable.

At the time, I think I put the BB on a pair lower than kings, while the other guy was on a draw. I thought that just calling might entice the BB to bet the river again, whereas a turn raise - coupled with the turn card that made a flush draw - might scare one or both of them into folding (assuming they were on straight draws instead).

But this is just post hoc rationalization. I do believe that raising the turn was best.

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I should have raised the turn because it seems like the bb was betting the flop with either a made pair lower than Kings, or on the draw. The same might be said of the third player in the hand. Because there are a couple of draws out there, and the turn didn't necessarily help, a raise seems reasonable.

At the time, I think I put the BB on a pair lower than kings, while the other guy was on a draw. I thought that just calling might entice the BB to bet the river again, whereas a turn raise - coupled with the turn card that made a flush draw - might scare one or both of them into folding (assuming they were on straight draws instead).

But this is just post hoc rationalization. I do believe that raising the turn was best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, I didn't see the 3rd player in the hand when I posted the hypothetical. I meant it as a heads-up thing.

If you think they might be inclined to fold, I would think that would make a turn-raise more correct. I don't know the specific numbers on the horse-race paradox as well as I should (Gary Carson lists it in its book), but all I know is that even on hands like these it scares the living crap out of me.

[StellarWind]

I like it. Your turn pot equity is not great because the board draws are so dangerous, your kicker is trash, and you are frequently behind.

Getting 3-bet with potential outs is a very real hazard. Yes BB may be pushing a draw but he has bet twice from first position into a 5-handed and then 3-handed pot. He could easily have the flush, a straight, or two pair. All he has done is push his hand as hard as he can on a dangerous board and yet people seem to assume that he must have nothing.

Raising the turn when you are ahead often merely warns the villains not to pay you off on the river with hands like J8. It also tells BB not to continue any bluff he might be running. As long as you let them believe any bluff or bluff-catcher could win your river will be much more profitable. Making the super-thin raise now will suck the life out of your river action.

[wackjob]

I raise the turn usually.