Patience - Q9s - Hand Quiz - Don't Cheat

[milesdyson]

First off, read slowly and please don't cheat.

So, polls have been owning me tonight. I've been trying to post a hand quiz for like 9 hours. I haven't eaten. I haven't peed. I haven't dropped a deuce. So, I compromised.

Here's how it's going to work, step by step:

0. READ THE READS PROVIDED.

1. Grab a piece of paper and a pen/pencil.

2. WAIT. Read the instructions SLOWLY.

3. Go to question #1. Answer it without looking ahead in the post. Write down your answer.

4. Go to question #2. Answer it without looking ahead. Write it down.

5. Continue through question #4, and THEN fill in the poll. Please don't cheat.

--- (When you see these dashes, slow down. Next question coming soon)
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BB in this hand is super weak tight. You've seen him bet/fold hands after raising preflop. You haven't even seen him showdown a hand yet in 45 hands. You have stolen his blind 3 or 4 times during those hands. His stats so far are 9/3/3.

SB in this hand is LOOSE. He is 50/3/1 or so, and you have played one hand with him heads up earlier in the session. You had QJ on the button, you raised, he called. The flop was AKQ. You bet the flop, and you checked behind on a 7 turn. He bet the river with 78.

UTG in the hand is even looser. His VPIP is 83% and he sees ~40% of showdowns. He was the second overcaller on the river with K2 on a AQ2T6 board. The turn had been raised when the 3rd spade fell.

Here's the hand:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero ...

<font color="blue">QUESTION #1: What do you do preflop?</font>

A: Raise. Your hand is pretty good, you have position, BB is tight and will fold, and the others are loose, bad postflop players. They will be more inclined to make bad calls if you hit, since they expect you to be betting regardless of what you have. You will be paid off handsomely postflop if you make a hand.
B: Fold. SB and UTG are going to call anyway. You won't be able to make them fold postflop ever by raising, and open limping on the button is forbidden.
C: Open limp. SB and UTG are going to call your raise anyway, and none of the 3 players left to act raise very often, but this is too much hand to fold in position against these donkeys.
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #2: You raise preflop. Only BB folds, as expected. (6 SB) - Flop comes 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB checks, UTG checks. What do you do?</font>

A: Check. You have two overcards, backdoor flush draw and crappy backdoor straight draw. Let's see a free turn.
B: Bet. This is a good flop for us, and though they both will probably call, we can take a free turn card if we choose. There is also a slight chance we pick up the pot.
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #3: You bet the flop. SB calls, UTG calls. (4.5 BB) - Turn comes 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, UTG checks. What do you do?</font>

A: Check. Take the free card with 15+ outs. Betting would be better with As9s because we'd have the best hand more often.
B: Bet. We have so many outs, and they love to call. Betting this is betting for value, even on the turn.
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #4: You check the turn. (4.5 BB) - River comes 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, UTG calls. What do you do?</font>

A: Call. Any 6 makes him a straight, and he could have been slowplaying a flopped 8 or better.
B: Fold. We can not overcall this hand. We only have a pair and weak kicker on a 4-straight board.
C: Raise. He would bet a 5, a 7, or a weaker 9 here. We have UTG caught in the middle and as long as SB doesn't 3-bet, UTG will call. This is a value raise.


I have already "scored" each decision. I will not post this until later, though, because I know some people will cheat.

[irishpint]

i would fold pf here i think. you raised. elaborate.

[detruncate]

Virgin poll. Right on. Jeebus knows I need the help, so here we are:

<font color="white">I raise pf, bet the flop, check the turn, bet the river... and get 3-bet or lose if this is me playing and not miles. </font>

[SCfuji]

c b a a. when are we going to discuss this, and please for the love of your colon go take a deuce.

[irishpint]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Virgin poll. Right on. Jeebus knows I need the help, so here we are:

<font color="white">I raise pf, bet the flop, check the turn, bet the river... and get 3-bet or lose if this is me playing and not miles. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean <font color="white"> raise </font> the river i hope.

i stillt hink we fold this pf

CAAA

The only one thats even close is 2... and that isnt that close

[SCfuji]

actually i think 3 is the easiest. betting would be a leak against these guys.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Virgin poll. Right on. Jeebus knows I need the help, so here we are:

<font color="white">I raise pf, bet the flop, check the turn, bet the river... and get 3-bet or lose if this is me playing and not miles. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean <font color="white"> raise </font> the river i hope.

i stillt hink we fold this pf

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. That's what I meant. And I'm not even being sneaky and editing my post to make you look silly.

The white probably isn't necessary, but: <font color="white"> I think we play well enough vs two posters and a weak tightie to see a flop, and I'd prefer to raise rather than call. Surely we have enough equity in position vs two random hands held by loose/passive players, which is how we end up most often. FWIW, Pokerstove gives us ~40.6% vs truly random, and I think they both call any 2 after posting if I'm reading the description correctly. Edit: yes, I realize that the blind loosie is the SB, not the BB. But I still think he calls pretty much any 2, and we have a bit of room to work with equity wise in any case.</font>

CAAC. Limp against these guys all day ever day with marginal PF equity. Take every opportunity you get to beat them up for cheap.
I'm comfortable letting super-weak tighty in with his randoms.
#4 was definitely the hard call for me.
CAAA is fine as well I think. If UTG folds, Raise for sure.

I personally open limp here with two super loose players in. I think we need more fold equity on the flop to make raising right. Gotta bet the flop for free card and small chance of folding everyone. Like the turn check. I raise the river with UTG padding the pot.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise pf, bet the flop, check the turn, bet [raise] the river... and get 3-bet or lose if this is me playing and not miles.

[/ QUOTE ]
haha, this is great.

oops CBAA i forgot that we raised preflop, this changes that flop bet in to a continuation bet.

[2+2 wannabe]

ABAA

I can't believe people want to fold this preflop - limping pf not as good as raising

everything else seems to be pretty standard

[thesharpie]

I got #3 wrong, voted bet. I was thinking the fact we have like 15 outs usually, a small chance of being ahead, and a small chance of taking it down now made a bet look good, I guess I didn't look close enough to the reads. If they are the type to peel the flop alot and fold the turn UI I think a bet is alright?

Edit: Like the [censored] pop group

[David04]

My line was ABBA. Reasoning for a turn bet here:we have 9 outs to a flush, 3 outs to a straight(which may be a split pot if hit) plus we will likely win with a Q, and a 9 might win as well.

Pokerstove numbers:

41,122,620 games 18.432 secs 2,231,044 games/sec

Board: 7h 8s 8d 5s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.4449 % 31.06% 01.39% { random }
Hand 2: 32.4449 % 31.06% 01.39% { random }
Hand 3: 35.1102 % 33.89% 01.22% { Qs9s }



So a bet here would be for value, but it would be a very, very thin value bet.

[xenthebrain]

ABAA

The most interesting is the river IMO.
We don't care to overcall in this spot, since UTG would call with bottom pair.
But I wouldn't want to raise passive SB here.

[Paxosmotic]

AAAA. I took the liberty of giving myself a free peek at the turn since my opponents would probably check to me again and let me see the river for free, too.

[hicherbie]

ABAA

1.get bb out and get free turn if needed vs this cast.
2.bet for the free card. if one of them happens to fold, that would be great (but not expected).
3. you paid and turned a strong draw. take what you paid for.
4. make the crying call in this big pot.

[Greg J]

You are right: question 3 is quite easy. I think the river is easy as well.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
I got #3 wrong, voted bet. I was thinking the fact we have like 15 outs usually, a small chance of being ahead, and a small chance of taking it down now made a bet look good, I guess I didn't look close enough to the reads. If they are the type to peel the flop alot and fold the turn UI I think a bet is alright?

Edit: Like the [censored] pop group

[/ QUOTE ]

I said bet this turn as well. Is the reason we're not betting because we don't think these guys will fold? We have a pretty good draw here don't we?

[POKhER]

How did UTG Check preflop ? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Raise, bet, freecard, Raise(Due to his actions when he had 78 and bet!)

ABAC

[Fantam]

CAAA.

I dont mind letting BB in preflop as my hand does not have particularly high card strength, but does have drawing potential. So I am happy to see a multiway hand, which can win me a big pot if I connect well with the flop.

I am not sure that betting the flop will buy a free turn card with the loose SB and UTG, which is why I check.

I dont like the idea of risking being 3-bet on the turn, when my hand has a lot of outs, so I prefer to check.

As SB and UTG are both very loose, either one of them could easily have a 6, so I favour a call.

My reasoning for checking the turn: We have lots of outs to improve to what will probably be the best hand. However, if we don't hit any of them, we're not gonna win with Queen high.

If we bet the turn, they will not both fold. Perhaps neither will fold, perhaps just the one with the worse hand. Then they'll check to us on the river.

By checking the turn, we encourage them to bet to us on the river, which means if we make our hand we can raise and they'll call. If we miss the river, we can just fold.

Why did most of you just call the river bet? UTG clearly has nothing, the only one you have to worry about is SB. He doesn't have 99, 97, or 98, or any high pocket pair, or he'd have bet on the flop or turn. That leaves any 6, 95, A9, and K9 which is beating you, and everything else which you are beating. SB would have likely bet this river with any pair, as your turn check said, "just kidding about that flop bet, I really have nothing".

Raise.

[RatFink]

For those that decide to bet the turn, are we strong enough with these outs on a paired board to continue if check-raised given reads?

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
For those that decide to bet the turn, are we strong enough with these outs on a paired board to continue if check-raised given reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but betting the turn is wrong IMO.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
For those that decide to bet the turn, are we strong enough with these outs on a paired board to continue if check-raised given reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we are, and this is one of the main reasons why checking is better: because we need to pay off a check-raise.

[milesdyson]

Well here's how I played the hand, and how I scored the choices. I thought the river was a raise.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG (poster) calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font> ...


<font color="blue">QUESTION #1: What do you do preflop?</font>

A: Raise. Your hand is pretty good, you have position, BB is tight and will fold, and the others are loose, bad postflop players. They will be more inclined to make bad calls if you hit, since they expect you to be betting regardless of what you have. You will be paid off handsomely postflop if you make a hand.
<font color="#666666">(8 points - you have a good chance of getting BB's dead money in the pot, and it's true that the other players will be more likely to pay you off postflop since you raised preflop with a hand that won't "look like" it hit the board)</font>

B: Fold. SB and UTG are going to call anyway. You won't be able to make them fold postflop ever by raising, and open limping on the button is forbidden.
<font color="#666666">(1 point - this really is too much hand to fold here, on the button)</font>

C: Open limp. SB and UTG are going to call your raise anyway, and none of the 3 players left to act raise very often, but this is too much hand to fold in position against these donkeys.
<font color="#666666">(5 points - although open limping is usually frowned upon, this time it wouldn't be terrible. This hand is building up to be ideal, though. If we raise, we have a strong hand against 2 really bad players, and we have the button)</font>
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #2: You raise preflop. Only BB folds, as expected. (6 SB) - Flop comes 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB checks, UTG checks. What do you do?</font>

A: Check. You have two overcards, backdoor flush draw and crappy backdoor straight draw. Let's see a free turn.
<font color="#666666">(4 points - either of these guys have the capability to bet a very weak hand on the turn if we check through on the flop. We will be folding the turn very often because of this)</font>

B: Bet. This is a good flop for us, and though they both will probably call, we can take a free turn card if we choose. There is also a slight chance we pick up the pot.
<font color="#666666">(7 points - we almost always bet the flop after raising preflop anyway, and in this hand especially, that free turn card could really be worth something)</font>
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #3: You bet the flop. SB calls, UTG calls. (4.5 BB) - Turn comes 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, UTG checks. What do you do?</font>

A: Check. Take the free card with 15+ outs. Betting would be better with As9s because we'd have the best hand more often.
<font color="#666666">(9 points - Standard checking through with outs, only exaggerated by the fact that if you chose to semibluff here, you really have no chance to fold out the field)</font>

B: Bet. We have so many outs, and they love to call. Betting this is betting for value, even on the turn.
<font color="#666666">(1 point - it might BARELY squeak through as "betting for value," but that is if you have 16+ outs. We already know SB to lead on the river with very weak hands from the example in the hand read. This will set up the river very nicely if we do hit, since UTG might, scratch that, will call between us)</font>
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<font color="blue">QUESTION #4: You check the turn. (4.5 BB) - River comes 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, UTG calls. What do you do?</font>

A: Call. Any 6 makes him a straight, and he could have been slowplaying a flopped 8 or better.
<font color="#666666">(6 points - there's some chance that he could have a 6/8 or a better 9 here, and if we raise we might get 3-bet)</font>

B: Fold. We can not overcall this hand. We only have a pair and weak kicker on a 4-straight board.
<font color="#666666">(0 points - there are too many hands that SB could bet here that we beat. UTG is almost a nonfactor when he calls the river)</font>

C: Raise. He would bet a 5, a 7, or a weaker 9 here. We have UTG caught in the middle and as long as SB doesn't 3-bet, UTG will call. This is a value raise.
<font color="#666666">(8 points - there are many more 5x, 7x, 9x hands that we can beat here than there are 8x/6x/better 9x hands. Add to that the fact that you've seen UTG be the second overcaller with bottom pair on the river, and this looks more like a value raise)</font>

[RatFink]

I chose check for that reason, but was curious about it from those voting to bet turn.

[Greg J]

I largely agree with your assessments. I had thought just calling the river was best, but you made the case for a raise fairly convincing. I dig it.

This was a good post -- it made me think.

EDIT: How many points for properly checking the turn? You still have time to edit and fix it.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
A: Check. Take the free card with 15+ outs. Betting would be better with As9s because we'd have the best hand more often.
<font color="#666666">(Standard checking through with outs, only exaggerated by the fact that if you chose to semibluff here, you really have no chance to fold out the field)</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
How much is this option worth?

I had raise/check/bet/call.

[milesdyson]

i put that in there - i gave it 9 points. i thought it to be the most certain decision of the hand, but that was just my assessment.

[Student Caine]

Thanks for the great post. It had me thinking for quite a while. Thanks for the detailed answers as well. I actually called the river, but now I see why that is a mistake.

[Felipe]

cool poll.

but i don't get this:

*
(8 points - there are many more 5x, 7x, 9x hands that we can beat here than there are 8x/6x/better 9x hands. Add to that the fact that you've seen UTG be the second overcaller with bottom pair on the river, and this looks more like a value raise)
*

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
cool poll.

but i don't get this:

*
(8 points - there are many more 5x, 7x, 9x hands that we can beat here than there are 8x/6x/better 9x hands. Add to that the fact that you've seen UTG be the second overcaller with bottom pair on the river, and this looks more like a value raise)
*

[/ QUOTE ]
there are more hands he would bet here that we beat than we lose to. this doesn't even have to be the case though, as we have UTG stuck in here who will probably call a river raise, which means we don't necessarily have to be ahead of SB's range to make this raise.

[Sightless]

c
a
b
a

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cool poll.

but i don't get this:

*
(8 points - there are many more 5x, 7x, 9x hands that we can beat here than there are 8x/6x/better 9x hands. Add to that the fact that you've seen UTG be the second overcaller with bottom pair on the river, and this looks more like a value raise)
*

[/ QUOTE ]
there are more hands he would bet here that we beat than we lose to. this doesn't even have to be the case though, as we have UTG stuck in here who will probably call a river raise, which means we don't necessarily have to be ahead of SB's range to make this raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand it a little more. So what did sb and bb have?

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
ABAA

I can't believe people want to fold this preflop - limping pf not as good as raising

everything else seems to be pretty standard

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotta raise, knock out the weak tight guy who wont pay u off but will take the pot if he hits. You maintain control of the hand, and your hand is pretty strong. bet the flip. You might get someone to fold, but more importantly you get a free turn most likely. check the turn. they arent gonna fold now and you dont want to get raised with all your outs. im definately not raising the river, they hold a 6 or missed a c/r on an 8 often. on a less scary board i would raise, but not here.

[krimson]

I raise pre-flop, lots of blinds in the pot, them folding is dead money. Q9s may not be the best hand, it could be against a ragged king or something, but we have position and are playing against weaker players and I can definitely play this better post-flop against them.

Bet the flop, hope to take it down there.

Turn gives us quite a few outs, check behind.

Call the river bet. After sb leads, I am concerned that he has the straight, or missed a slowplay on the 8's. I think we're still ahead here typically but I don't see a lot of value in raising this and opening ourselves to a 3-bet.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
... im definately not raising the river, they hold a 6 or missed a c/r on an 8 often. on a less scary board i would raise, but not here.

[/ QUOTE ]
they? only SB has a chance to have a better hand than we do, and we've seen him bet 4th pair on the river out of position before. we are ahead of UTG almost every time. sure it's a scary board, but we have a good chance of snagging 2 more big bets, and we don't have to call a 3-bet.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

Wow, I cannot believe that so many people are saying to fold this preflop. UTG is on any 2 and you're on the button.

An important skill to improve your game is to isolate weak limpers and you should frequently be doing it in situations like this.

Definite Raise.

-Craig

[jrz1972]

I scored 30 points for playing exactly like Miles, except I just called the river. My reason for doing this is that I ignored Miles' instructions to be patient and really read the reads part, and by the time I got to #4 I had forgotten the thing about SB betting weak hands on the river. With that in mind, I agree with raising the river, but I would defintely not do so against an unknown.

I'm shocked at the number of people who want to fold this hand preflop. IMO, open-limping this is pretty ugly, but folding is just awful. We have position, a nice suited hand with some high card value (and remote straight potential), and two morans who are going to come along for the ride. If you don't try to isolate the morans in this spot, when would you?

[POKhER]

Hell yeah i got maximum points and i think i suck! Does this mean im pro /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[milesdyson]

sorry didn't notice the last few comments. only 4 out of 74 people to answer the question voted to fold preflop. i still think it's bad, but i'm not surprised at all to see this.

i am surprised to see how many people wanted to bet the turn - about 1 out of 3.

[Dunno]

Great post man! Feel free to make more anytime (i know ur busted ur ass of w it but it was really nice /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

Got 30p.. would just call down the river.