Top pair, no draws.

[1800GAMBLER]

OK i'm generally wondering about the best way to play these hands. Then i'll give an example.

So you have the top pair on the flop around 9 - Q 1. with an over card 2. with a high kicker. On the flop there are no draws, no straight draw or flush draw.

So far my logic is, it's not worth giving a freecard and slow playing, because 1. allows others in 2. doesn't put money in the pot.

In my other post i got flamed for not high betting the top pair when someone outdrew me with pocket 10s. So i have now started betting the top pair and usually to more than 2x the blinds. That is all nice when i am trying to filter out the draws.

In this case though there are no draws, and usually when i have bet a nice bet everyone folds, meaning taking a possible bigger pot there and then.

With the top pair say around Js, all i have to worry about is someone calling a bet with over cards and pairing up. Even that comes with small probability of happening. For 1. the over card coming, 2. it matching up with someone else's in the 2 - 4 players left.

So, to brief, i'm wondering how you play the top pairs say from around 9 - Q pairs 1, with a over card 2, with a medium to high kicker, with no draws and around 4 people seeing the flop.

Thanks again.

[pudley4]

Although you don't specifically state it, it sounds like you're playing NL. With only top pair, I'd be happy to take down the pot immediately. Some prerequisites for slow-playing (off the top of my head) are:

1-The pot is currently small
2-A free card might give someone the second-best hand or a draw to the second-best hand
3-Your hand is strong enough that you won't be outdrawn

While #1 is true, #2 and #3 are obviously not. Even if someone only has one overcard, if he hits, you've just lost the pot. Your hand is not even close to being strong enough to let people in. Bet, shut them out, take down the pot, and move on.

Say you have QJ, and the board is Q 7 2. There are no draws here, but you can't afford to give the players who have AT, 87, or 33, a free chance to beat you.

[1800GAMBLER]

Here's an example of one that just happened.

Tournment game, very early.

I hold k q unsuited. I'm JayPee2.



> JayPee2 posted small blind (10)
> JustJenn posted big blind (20)

> Dealing Hole Cards
> rosetime called for 20
> boxmaker folded
> IvanT called for 20
> cosmicpossum folded
> ShawnDog called for 20
> mamabear folded
> tazg01287114 called for 20
> JayPee2 raised for 30
> JustJenn folded
> rosetime called for 20
> IvanT called for 20
> ShawnDog called for 20
> tazg01287114 called for 20
> Dealing the Flop

Board: Q 6 7r.

> JayPee2 bet for 153.50
> rosetime folded
> IvanT folded
> ShawnDog folded
> tazg01287114 folded
> JayPee2 wins 373.50

This case i won a decent amount, however strange because the only thing i have to worry about was the straight draw or an ace.

I also feel these are bad players and even though they aren't getting the pot odds would have chased an open straight if they had it.

Looking at their possible cards for the straight too are 8 9; 8 6; 5 4; which all look unlikely they saw the flop after a raise.

Thinking about it i figure if i bet 40, had 2 callers. Dropping a king would be a money card for me. An ace would be bad but that is a 4/47 chance of hitting

Or a card with helps the straight, 8/47.

Totally probability of a card hitting that helps the board, is 12/47. Almost 4:1. Which the callers will get pot odds for, but even if this card that helps the board drops it may not help them.

Plus the fact their are only 2 other players in this, but, they will be the players with the best hands.

Anyhow, comments wanted on that play too. ^

[Louie Landale]

Perhaps I'm infering incorrectly, but it seems that perhaps you have adopted the philosophy that you should slow-play all good hands unless you have a good specific reason to bet. If so, that's wrong. You should routinely bet ALL good hands unless you can think of a real good or compelling reason not to.

So, bet top pair.

Some reasons NOT to come to mind [] Someone else is sure to bet [] Not betting will encourage someone to go to the river with you drawing very slim [] You already fear your pair is beat [] You want to check-raise to narrow the field [] you normally check in this situation, so you check your pair to disguise your other checks.

As for over-cards, generally do not slow-play a pair if there are two over-cards that can beat you. So rarely if every slow play QJ flop Qxx, but you CAN give some consideration to slow playing KQ flop Qxx.

- Louie

[1800GAMBLER]

I wasn't reallying referring to slowplaying. The usual NL table i play it usually takes 3x blinds bet to push the people who are looking for draws (other than str/flush) out. But with just a bet they'll all stay regardless of the pot odds, i'm pretty sure most don't even know pot odds.

So this made me wonder if i am betting to push them out or putting money in the pot.

Another question, if you top pair an ace with no straight draw or flush draw on. This time i held A J, board held A 9 4, so i saw no reason to push people out.

My only worries are trip or 2 pair failing for them (if they stay in with 2nd pair), and that is pretty unlikely, 2/47 and 3/47 over 2 cards, least just double for the sake of not being accurate, 4/47 and 6/47 are the chances they make that before the end. 12:1 and 8:1.

So i just bet the blinds on the flop, 3 stayed, bet doubles up on the turn, i bet. Bet the river again, which a Q falls and i lose to 9 Q two pair.

Comments?

Thanks for the replies.

[Your Mom]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in NL online tournaments it is correct to protect your stack, that is slowly build it up unless you have a real monster. This means being content to take a small to medium pot with top pair, decent kicker. The hand you lost with AJ - that was a result of not making a substantial bet and picking up the pot. You just asked to lost this pot by betting the minimum. Go ahead and bet a decent amount. Everyone will fold which gains you three things. 1) You avoid risking your chips. 2) You gain chips. 3) This allows you to steal pots by doing this same thing when you don't flop top pair.

[1800GAMBLER]

1. Just ran some maths that some maybe interested in to see the chances of not holding the best hand on a raindow flop with no straight draws.

Assuming the only hands i can't beat are:

1. 2 pair with one of the pairs being the same as mine:

3(2/47 * 3/46 * 1) = 9/1081; 120:1.

2. 2 pair not holding my pair:

3(3/47 * 3/46 * 1) = 27/2162; 80:1

3. A set, pocket pair and matching up (not perfectly accurate):

1/16 * 3(2/50) = 3/400; 133:1

Totally chance of not having the best hand when i throw a lot of chips in is 35:1.

It's even higher up if the board is Q rag rag. But it's assuming a don't throw in at a paired board.

Anyhow, what about this play not in tournments, take the chips there and then?