AJ vs TAG and a 3bet

[MrEngenic]

2/4 Party

I raise UTG with AJ, Tag in MP 3bets, I call, HU on flop.

Flop J45r, I check/call
Turn 5 I check/call
River 6, I bet and intend to call a raise.


Should I check/call the river instead as a standard line against a TAG?

[ZenMusician]

Bet flop...then you get more info you need for the rest of the hand.

What do you put him on?

You haven't shown any post-flop strength, so he will run over you
with AK UI and try to push you off of overcards.

-ZEN

[ QUOTE ]
Bet flop...then you get more info you need for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. He's probably raising every flop here. It's stupid to "bet for info." if you have no intention of folding. And folding HU vs a tag w/TPTK sucks.

I think the OP's line was best.

[ZenMusician]

You're right...

I will start check-calling all my TPTK hands to a TAG.

Betting for info is stupid.

-ZEN

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet flop...then you get more info you need for the rest of the hand.

What do you put him on?

You haven't shown any post-flop strength, so he will run over you
with AK UI and try to push you off of overcards.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Far better let him bet his hand than to try to 'define it' and risk pushing him off his AK or spew bets to a hand that has us drawing to at most 5 outs. We're going to have to go 3+ bets on the flop and then probably call the turn anyway for 2-pair outs. We lose more when behind, and win less when ahead because he almost certainly folds his AK to a turn bet if he just calls our flop 3-bet... but we can't love a turn lead since he'll be trying to c/r a big overpair sometimes.

I also bet/call this river by default unless he's on the passive/predictable side, but I'm not sure the call is going to be profitable outside of improving reads and metagame considerations.

[ QUOTE ]
You're right...

I will start check-calling all my TPTK hands to a TAG.

Betting for info is stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing this is sarcastic. If not, my bad. You bet tag raises, what do you do? Fold? Call and fold the turn UI? Call down? 3-bet (for even more info!)?

[ QUOTE ]
Bet flop...then you get more info you need for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will get raised by AK or hand like 1010 a lot of the time here. You will get called by AA,KK,QQ,JJ a lot of the time here, hoping for you to lead the turn. So you're not really getting much info.

[ QUOTE ]
You haven't shown any post-flop strength, so he will run over you
with AK UI and try to push you off of overcards.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this bad?

[ZenMusician]

If this is truly your logic, then you need to fold preflop when
the TAG 3-bets. What flop do you want with your AJ?
KQT? AJJ? What if the TAG has AA on the AJJ board?

When your AJ is dominated, yes you will lose more when behind...
but in this case, what hand range does TAG have and what was
your plan when calling the 3-bet?

-ZEN

[ QUOTE ]
Far better let him bet his hand than to try to 'define it' and risk pushing him off his AK or spew bets to a hand that has us drawing to at most 5 outs. We're going to have to go 3+ bets on the flop and then probably call the turn anyway for 2-pair outs. We lose more when behind, and win less when ahead because he almost certainly folds his AK to a turn bet if he just calls our flop 3-bet... but we can't love a turn lead since he'll be trying to c/r a big overpair sometimes.

I also bet/call this river by default unless he's on the passive/predictable side, but I'm not sure the call is going to be profitable outside of improving reads and metagame considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]
This explains why the OP's line is best. To put it simply if you're up against a solid tag you're ahead way less than 50% of the time here, so putting more money in is not ideal. However you're getting about 13:5 on a calldown (after the rake). And you're ahead more than 28% of the time. The logic behind the river bet is that he'll likely check behind with worse hands that he was willing to call with. And he'll usually only call with better hands, that he would have bet anyways.

[MrEngenic]

[ QUOTE ]
And he'll usually only call with better hands, that he would have bet anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was interested in what I do if he raises. Will he recognice (hmm spelling?) this as AJ and raise QQ-AA, fold AK?

Who knows. He might raise AK for a free card. He might just call with AA or JJ hoping to raise the turn. IMO you played the hand perfectly and the only real debate is on what you should do on the river, c/c, b/c or b/f

[ZenMusician]

OK...

In MP...what is the TAGs 3-betting range here? You must have a range
to say we are behind 50% Also, TAG does not equal solid or tricky
necessarily. What if TAG raises the river? If the flop is 3-bet and you
call anyway it costs the same to get to showdown and you still haven't
gotten any "info" from your river bet. Are we folding to any A, K or Q
on the river?

-ZEN

[MrEngenic]

[ QUOTE ]
Who knows. He might raise AK for a free card. He might just call with AA or JJ hoping to raise the turn. IMO you played the hand perfectly and the only real debate is on what you should do on the river, c/c, b/c or b/f

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, that's what I was asking for. Will he recognize (that's how it's spelled /images/graemlins/smile.gif my river donk as AJ and fold AK, raise QQ-AA?

[ QUOTE ]
Are we folding to any A, K or Q
on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you even consider folding top two on the river?

The go crazy on the flop then slow down line may only cost the same if you're behind and he raises the river, which he usually won't do. But if you're ahead you'll win way less. Position is key here. He can check behind with losers on the river and bet winners, that's why betting the river is best.

FWIW, I call a river raise everytime. It's really close vs most tags. You're very rarely getting raised by a worse hand but the #s are too good to fold w/o a lot of experience vs this oppoent.

You've been in his shoes before. I think he usually makes a crying call on the river with AK. And he's only betting AK on the river if he's a complete idiot.

[ZenMusician]

Dude,

I must say this is the first intelligent debate I've had on here
in awhile. Thank you for not letting heated=personal!

I am maybe too aggressive in these spots, but I think unbridled
aggression is common with newer-emerging TAGs. We know
we shouldn't be AK UI into a field, but...

I can see value in OPs line for saving bets, and honestly, I will
try this line out and see what numbers I come up with. I hope
we post again in the same thread soon...

-ZEN

[bambi]

it would take some balls to raise that river with an over pair on such a co ordinated board, i think you played it fine

[MrEngenic]

He thought for awhile and raised the river with KK and I called. He said it was pretty transparent I had AJ or TT.

I like the check-call flop and turn and the bet-call river.

Originally I thought check-raise the flop and fold to a reraise might be good (or check-raise, call a reraise, then check-call turn), but this probably gives up too much since you still have outs against QQ and KK.