Turn 3-bet?

[Willluck]

Party 3/6, 6-max (6-handed)
UTG+1 is a TAG and is 27/17/1.9 after 400+, unfortunately I know very little more about the way he plays. No other reads.


I'm dealt [ Ks Kc ] UTG
I raise, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, I cap, everyone calls.

(4 players)** Flop ** [ 3s, 5h, Jh ](16 sbs)
checked to me and I bet, UTG+1 calls, sb folds, BB calls

(3 players)** Turn ** [ Td ](9.5 bb)
BB checks, I bet, UTG+1 raises, bb folds, I...???

[Willluck]

I really want to see what people have to say about this one.

[wackjob]

First off, TAG's don't often cold call an UTG raise from another TAG. When he raises that turn you have to figure he has 2pair or a set, with the slight chance hes getting tricky with a draw or TPTK. I definately do not 3-bet here against this opponent.

[MAxx]

i'd call it down

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, TAG's don't often cold call an UTG raise from another TAG. When he raises that turn you have to figure he has 2pair or a set, with the slight chance hes getting tricky with a draw or TPTK. I definately do not 3-bet here against this opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]that's kinda what I was thinking...but then I started thinking about hands that I'd cold call with(KQs, maybe QJs, maybe JTs) and realized I was ahead of most in that range(and drawing heavy if behind). Only problem is that if he was raising any of the hands I was ahead of here he is making a huge mistake...so quite a predicament.

[wackjob]

Cold calling with J10s or QJs to an UTG raise from a TAG is a mistake IMO. Calling OTB after a raise and 2 cold callers is a lot better IMO. J10 & QJ are so very often dominated by a TAG raising UTG.

I doubt this guy is raising with a hand you currently have beat, however I think it is likely he has a weak 2-pair quite often and you have the odds to improve to a better 2-pair or a set.

[StellarWind]

Crying call. His failure to raise the flop in front of the field is ominous. I fear a set or clever AA.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
however I think it is likely he has a weak 2-pair quite often

[/ QUOTE ]
What two pair is that? JT is possible. Players like this don't coldcall with total trash.

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
Crying call. His failure to raise the flop in front of the field is ominous. I fear a set or clever AA.

[/ QUOTE ]I honestly was thinking this looked an awful lot like KQh misplayed, or another misplayed flush draw. That is why I kinda wanted to 3-bet it.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Crying call. His failure to raise the flop in front of the field is ominous. I fear a set or clever AA.

[/ QUOTE ]I honestly was thinking this looked an awful lot like KQh misplayed, or another misplayed flush draw. That is why I kinda wanted to 3-bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well it is certainly possible and that's why you call down. But K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif is a single hand and you are further assuming he played it this particular way. Only a handful of other flush draws make reasonable cold calls.

Why can't he have 55 or 33 and be playing like a normal person? Plus when he has a set you get capped with 2 outs. When he has K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif he calls with 15 outs. You lose 1/3 of the time and only net EV = +1/3 BB for being right.

Plus if you shut up he may try and push you off AK/AQ when his draw busts. 3-bet now and there is nothing for you on the river.

[Jgents]

There's nothing clever--only stupidity--in playing AA this way.

I don't see how this TAG coldcalls you with anything other than say a suited connector like 9T-Jts, KQS, or something like AQ and maybe AJ. Medium PP he should be raising to isolate and high PP for value. Just because you categorize him as and his stats look TAG doesn't mean he plays remotely well like one. Given the above range--let's say it's very likely--what do you do/should do on the turn.

Edit to add: Left out AK, of course, because by default he is going to raise that. Maybe he's being tricky or careful considering the UTG raise. AK taking a stab at a pot on a J_high board is not out of the question here.

[Jgents]

[ QUOTE ]

Why can't he have 55 or 33 and be playing like a normal person?

[/ QUOTE ]

55 or 33 coldcalling an UTG raise is normal? Please say it ain't so.

Call down, he played this oddly.

Doesn't TT raise this flop?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why can't he have 55 or 33 and be playing like a normal person?

[/ QUOTE ]

55 or 33 coldcalling an UTG raise is normal? Please say it ain't so.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Normal" is not a synonym for correct.

But given that a 27/17 Villain chose to coldcall from UTG+1, small pocket pairs are extremely normal hands for him to have. The other common hands are suited paints plus AA/KK is favored by a few tricky players.

If he did call with 55/33 then the actual postflop play is probably the most likely thing for him to do. With K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif or some other flush draw he might play this way but it isn't particularly likely.