Ax suited Early level

How many here try to limp Ax suited (x being less than 10) in early levels out of position. I use to toss these with regularity but at the 55's the flop action gets so aggressive that I have found large paybacks when they hit. Of I shun them like the plague on any aggressive preflop action? Is this still a bad play??

[Sabrazack]

Dump em from early position, even if x = J. I hate crappy aces. I might come in for a raise from late position with them, but definately not early.

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Dump em from early position, even if x = J. I hate crappy aces. I might come in for a raise from late position with them, but definately not early.

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I totally agree with this post.

Even though I only play at the 11s right now, early stages of a STT I never even limp with Ax suited. However I am an extremely tight player... so... so... whatever! LOL!

[Hornacek]

I'll play AJ suited from early, but fold to a raise from LP. There are still enough donks to make it profitable (at least for me). AJo is a completely different issue.

Yeah I guess I am a bit to scared of another person having AK or AQ and out flopping me with a Axx flop. *shrugs*

I just feel more safe playing my tight early stages style than anything.

Plus at the 11s there really isnt any point to taking these chances early as see'ing how their overall play sucks nearing the bubble and such.

Just my two cents.

I am typically a very tight player but I do like A3 A4 suited if I can limp in when blinds are cheap. The reason for the 3 and the 4 is it throws some straight opportunities in there as well. Still experimenting with it and am well aware this is not a play to be made at the higher levels (and probably not at lower ones either..LOL) The beauty is if you can catch there are too many donks who can't let a pair of aces go. You can easily collect 10-15 BB early on and maybe a whole stack if the table is particularly post flop aggressive.

[sahala]

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I am typically a very tight player but I do like A3 A4 suited if I can limp in when blinds are cheap. The reason for the 3 and the 4 is it throws some straight opportunities in there as well. Still experimenting with it and am well aware this is not a play to be made at the higher levels (and probably not at lower ones either..LOL) The beauty is if you can catch there are too many donks who can't let a pair of aces go. You can easily collect 10-15 BB early on and maybe a whole stack if the table is particularly post flop aggressive.

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Are you going on the implied odds that no one will guess that you have a low ace that completes a wheel? The odds of nailing a favorable flop for this are pretty crappy.

Dont try to justify playing these hands. IMO, they get you in more trouble than they are worth. More than likely, someone will raise after you limp and you end up puking out a blind here and there. Dont try to justify playing this hand...just fold it and forget it.

Without a doubt the general consensus and correct play is to lay this down. I think however a good player can make this a very good +ev on the lower rate tables. Anyone have the odds on A3 A4 suited flopping higher than top pair??

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Dont try to justify playing these hands. IMO, they get you in more trouble than they are worth. More than likely, someone will raise after you limp and you end up puking out a blind here and there. Dont try to justify playing this hand...just fold it and forget it.

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I agree with this 100%. To many times you are going to get yourself into trouble post flop with these sorts of hands. Early stages of the tournaments this is an easy fold.

Just my opinion, but i think a good player would just let this hand go. you could use the "a good player can make this a +EV hand" with just about any hand for that matter.

It appears to me you really want to play this type of hand, and my only advice is to not, so i will exit the thread and let others help you out...good luck!

[illegit]

Limp behind other limpers in LP with them early on, and look for 2-pair, or pair + flush draw or flush + straight draw type flops. Or steal with them when opening in LP. Otherwise don't play them.

[DyessMan89]

I fold them in early position, but call with them in any other position if there isnt a raise in front of me. I call with them because I like their implied odds, and I outplay most people after the flop, so Im not too worried about losing my chips to AQ when I have AJ. If you dont have confidence in your game, then folding these everytime is the right move.

I have confidence in my game, but i always figured this was a leak.

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I have confidence in my game, but i always figured this was a leak.

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As do I. Since I have been reading these boards almost obsessively over the past six months... confidence in my game has risen alot. However with Party SNG structure I just dont like limping with Ax at all.

[Cactus Jack]

I would have written fold 'em on the main board if I could have. Anything below AK is questionable and AQ is good if you're trapping. Other than that, you're bleeding your chips away. If you're playing Party, you can't afford to bleed very much or you're drained before you can actually make any money.

Muck 'em.

CJ

[inyaface]

This is very player dependant..theres no reason to go broke with anything less then KK or AA in level 1 BUT if you can see a flop cheaply and get away from A or J high flops when need be I think it has to be plus EV to limp Ax sooted. If you don't have enough confidence in your game (which isn't a terrible thing) then folding it should be pretty easy. The best thing to do IMO is just to try playing it for a limp in a few sngs and see how it works out

[Cactus Jack]

Very simple, basic advice....If you have to ask, don't play them.

Cactus...I only play them in late position or late in teh game...but part of the reason i really hate this hand is the damn nut flush draw. I know many hate JJ or middle pocket pairs, but for me, the nut flush draw on the flop has always been a potentially devastating hand for my bankroll...any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Cactus Jack]

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Cactus...I only play them in late position or late in teh game...but part of the reason i really hate this hand is the damn nut flush draw. I know many hate JJ or middle pocket pairs, but for me, the nut flush draw on the flop has always been a potentially devastating hand for my bankroll...any thoughts would be appreciated.

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I'm no expert, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

It's long been held that Hold 'Em is a game for pairs and made hands. Draws are actually death. Why do so many play for them, I don't know, but they sure do. I wish I had all the money I've lost playing OESDs--open ended straight draws--that never fit. In a ring game, you can make a lot of money on flush and straight draws. In a tournament, you often say...nh...next game. Still, your opponents love 'em, so just make sure they don't have the correct odds to call. I've made more on sets than I'll ever make on flushes and straights.

Does that help?

CJ

thats why i fold preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Uppercut]

I made the mistake of limping on the button in level 2 with A6s tonight. I flopped the nut flush draw and bled off about 600 chips by the time my draw petered out on the river. (The thing is, I was getting 3-1 on the flop and 4-1 on the turn, so I was technically correct to make those calls. Of course, if I had any balls, I would have raised large on the flop to try to take it down right there.)

[ravensfan]

I currently play 22s and there I believe that this is table-dependent in L2, i'll usually call in L1 (mainly b/c so many people play tight pf and LAG post flop)
Here's why without any arbitrary math:
1) Implied odds
2) Scare value of A when villians call with KQ, KJ, 67s, etc
3) Party 22s are soft - see #1

To extract max loot, i'll sometimes bet 2/3-1x pot when I have say A4h and Qh10h5o hit giving me a flush draw. If i hit a flush, i'll either minbet or check-call the turn... Usually someone bluffs into me on river and/or i can get 1/3 of pot if they have high pair. This is actually fairly formulaic.

I actually like calling with Qxs or Kxs a little more, then if you hit your middle or bottom pair, you are more likely to have more outs...

An added advantage is that being put on loose early, gets you more calls when you tighten up and value bet later in L2 and L3-L5...

Just my $.02
Any thoughts?

[Cactus Jack]

ravensfan,

You're certainly going against prevailing wisdom in your play. In my experience, the opposition is loose preflop and weak/tight post. The reason Party is so difficult is you don't have a lot of chips to play them hard post-flop. I'm far more successful on PS with 1500 and Bodog with 1000, just because I can outplay most opponents post-flop. I'm tight as a gnat's behind in the first three levels on Party. I don't loosen up until the blinds get high enough to be worth stealing.

If you've played say 50K hands of NL ring games, you'd find that A6 is a real loser. I've got Poker Tracker stats that prove it, as do most people I know. At least with A5 you have the possibility of a wheel, but as was pointed out above, you hardly ever get paid off for this, and always run the danger of a donk with a higher straight. Again, I've got PT stats that back this up.

Playing NL ring games with PT keeping track is terrific training for the first few levels of SNGs and MTTs. You go through your stats and really find out which hands are money winners and which are really really bad. AK-AQ are good. AJ-AT are borderline. A9 is best played in late position in later rounds. AX-below, get progressively worse. Those are stats from tens of thousands of hands. YMMV.

Best wishes,

CJ

[ravensfan]

BUT, BUT, BUT... HELMUTH SAYS TO PLAY Axs.
lol, j/k...

Hmmm... interesting. I don't actually have any of the software yet to look this over. Your warning has been heeded and it's certainly something to think about.

Just playing devil's advocate here: but can't the way one plays A6/A7s be different, or table/player dependent... i mean, depending on the table, i'll fold it or play it. But even in cash games, i have been paid out frequently enough on some LAG sites (ie. crypto) when i present a weak image or when i represent an overpair and the flush hits. I do slowplay, c/r, c/r then fold etc a lot - I find this really insulates you from having to pay much for each card. Also, having an Ace flop will often slow down a lot of KQ, KJ, KK, QQ, etc hands. So you may get some free cards, or even win the hand outright with A6x often enough. I find i call down an awful lot of bluffs after representing a strong pair, and then slow down on the turn or sometimes a weak c/r on the turn (if i hit the flush on the turn) to represent a failed steal... followed by a small river bet if he only calls the turn. At this point, reads are obviously huge.

In tourneys, i do sometimes like to be a little LAG very early so that when i tighten up later i can get callers. I don't think i often pay $ on the turn though. Besides, i'm not too sure i mind taking a strictly -EV play, if the variance is large and offers a chance to coast to the bubble without any more work. Is 750 vs. 800 that tangible?

Also, i believe that PP tables are either (a)a little slow to start the betting on missed flops and that they'll often "pay to see" or (b) very agro. So far, it does seem somewhat polarized.

this is all observational, no numbers, but i do think that you can often pull huge xBB returns early when someone decides to be John Wayne and bluff the scary flush hard into you after you showed weakness. Especially if you've deceived him and land it on the turn, and just won't go away (ie are a typically weak party calling station)...

Also valuable are the rare times that your x turns into a set, or your Ax make 2 pair. I find these hands make a lot more money than usually AK does early. If you hit 2 pair on someone that had you dominated, the implied odds are huge since AK will probably stack himself to A6 if A610 flop. That's 27x on L1, and 14x on L2... This is good. And you are getting calls throughout the tournament after that "weak play" too - which should count for something.
Also when your x trips up on the flop, you can get someone to bet heavy into you often enough simply b/c there always seems to be a maniac or two... not that you should play this for these rareties, but that they do add to the final verdict, especially in a tourney where people seem to act very strange (ie not like a cash game) in the early stages.

Still working on this, but not sure if the tournament is long enough to switch styles twice, or only once...

Could this be something that SNG tracker doesn't necessarily track: effect on expected tournament earnings of hitting a large hand? My understanding is that most of the tools analyze the hands in a vacuum...

In the end, i think that if you can effectively disguise the hand, and not commit too much to the hand by calling down bets (ie preserve your FE even if it's +EV to call) then these hands aren't so bad to play on a table that's shown itself to be tight thus far... Lotta ifs...

[ravensfan]

Sorry Uppercut, but don't you need to get better than 3-1 on the flop to justify calling. I thought 3-1 on flop was great if the betting ended, but don't you need to compensate for the 9/47 odds it'll turn or the 9/46 it'll river on each street? ie. don't you need to account for the fact that he'll bet next round.
If you only call on two streets and river the flush, the implied odds on the river should be pretty close to zero-1/4 of the pot. If u get called on the flop and turn a flush, then i think you may very well significantly pad your stack as you trap him into bluffing away his stack (at least on the 11s and 22s).

[ravensfan]

My bad: what does YMMV mean? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Cactus Jack]

Everything should be filtered through "it depends." I find it often hard to comment on hands because I wasn't there. So much depends on the history of the table, your reads, your gut intuition, how you're feeling and which way your hair is combed. I advised based upon my experience and what I think is best for most people. When I said above, "if you have to ask, don't play it," is meant for those who are don't know. Those who can successfully play more loosely, are simply not going to ask the question. I couldn't advise them, anyway, as they are better than I am.

All that said, with regard to Party SNGs, a LAG style in the early rounds is just not +EV, in my experience and in my humble opinion. You don't have enough chips to mess around with, and your opponents are NOT reliable. For the first three rounds, it's just better to let them knock each other around and out. The more experience you have, the more shots you can take, but you have to weigh the risks. More experience allows you to know what the risks are and to adjust accordingly from hand to hand. Ax is very risky.

The difference between 500 and 800 chips is enormous. The game begins around 50/100 and 100/200 blinds. If you've got 500 chips, you're in the deep stuff. Therefore, ANY play at the first levels increases your chances of being a goner. It takes only one or two hands to be there.

Many here disagree with me, but again in my experience, the risk of bleeding chips is far greater than the reward of gaining a few. Those who disagree with me are much better players than I am, so they can afford to take chances I should pass on. As I'm a little above average, I'd strongly say that the majority of posters should take my advise and not theirs. Unless you know how to win coming from behind and do it again and again, you're greatly decreasing your chance to win by playing loosely in the first 4 rounds.

That's just my dos centavos. As I said, YMMV--your mileage may vary. (It's an old USENET abbreviation, as I'm an old guy, myself.)

Good luck, and feel free to ask any other questions I may have missed or gotten wrong.

CJ

[Cactus Jack]

Just remembered something I wanted to add, and it's important...

You are way overrating your opponents with regard to your table image. At this level, to think they are doing anything but staring at their own cards and rubbing their worry beads is not credible. You may have one, ONE, player who is watching other players. (Not me, I don't pay virtually ANY attention to the first three rounds, beyond checking chips stacks to see who is NOT playing any hands.) If your image is a consideration, make it a tight image. It will come in handy when you have to start stealing blinds.

With regard to changing gears, I look to change gears from tight to borderline maniacal to tight to damn, this guy is good. I'll let you figure out at what point each of those occur. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ

I was in the 1K last night and faced this position as well...I called with A8s in late position. got the nut flush draw on a 4 way pot. Sb pushed after the flop and i had to fold it. what i dont like is that you may get good odds on calling the turn and river, but i prefer to forego temptation and let it go...i folded...dont know if i would have won or lost it there, but this was the exact position i was talking about...

[ravensfan]

Hey Cactus,

Thanks for the response... I went on a bit last night, but essentially i agree with what you're saying in your post: a lot comes down to "it depends". I guess i was just trying to make the argument for why "hell no" turns into "it depends". /images/graemlins/smile.gif Then again, maybe i'm just trying to defend some loose calls...
In relation to stack size: i agree completely, around 500 chips, you're pretty much in the push or fold mentality and this comes pretty fast. (Although turning 500-650-750 in L3 isn't always too rough if you've folded a bunch of hands in a row and it's folded to you). I'd never call this junk OOP and rarely otherwise in L3, 50-50 in L2, for this reason. In L1, i don't mind taking a few chances to cash in, if i feel my risk of losing $15-$50 (max, if given good situation), is compensated by my ability to stack some maniac. As mentioned, in L3 stacks are relevant, and having a deep one (1500+) can almost assure you some money( I'm guessing here, but I'd put having 1500 chips at about 1.5- 1.8x BB value in L3). Also, if i've already missed a few hands of junk, i'm slowing down - stack management.
I only wish to project LAG in L1 and maybe 1st half of L2, then tighten up for L2 (all or second half) - L3/L4 (depending on stack, tourney etc)... In OTB, I'm sometimes a maniac, sometimes real tight OTB (by tight, i'll still push 66+, A10+, KJ+ if folded to me, but become less likely to call, with anything other than AK, 88+)

Finally, from observation of friends, conversations during games, looking around at computer cafes etc... i've found that many players do pay attention to you, WHILE stroking their lucky beads. What else can you do if you only play one or two tournaments (if you're feeling crazy) at a time - which i believe is the norm below 33s. They've gotta pay attention to something, especially if they're married to that $22, or think that if their play is 100% correlated with their result (go to a home game, you know what i mean).

Seriously, we make money not from other 2+2ers, but from non 2+2ers who aren't multi-tabling. These guys get pissed if you continually push them around, and once it's in their head that you're "a bully", they refuse to take it anymore and will outbluff you, or call you down. If your ROI is >5% (yes, random) I think you are winning the battle when someone is looking to gun you down. That's when having TPTK/ midflush, 9s-Js etc works very well. They are just drooling to make you pay for bluffing too many times, and will play you, not the money. I've found that in cash games this is very, very +EV. In fact the players who are much better than me make a ton of money this way in cash games - come in and project looseness, steal a few big pots, then slow down and earn a bunch more big pots.

I'm not a great player YET (only mid 20s ROI at 22s while 4 tabling, although a couple of very bad runs make me optimistic this is rising). I'm still experimenting to find the right blend of this style, compard to the "sit out the first 2 levels, then gradually become a blind stealing maniac" style, which also works extremely well (my ROI was actually better with the tighter style). If I was more disciplined, i'd put in a set of say 50 with each and report... maybe i will, who knows?

Whatcha think cactus?

[ravensfan]

Without knowing too much of the blind levels, stacks etc good fold. In my opinion, chip value is frequently more important than EV... especially if we can put ourselves on a fairly +ve ROI (which implies our chips ARE worth more, so we should pick better spots, than 5% edges).

I think the thing about these hands is this: catch the draw, and hope noone bets hard, or block the push with a bet if appropriate ie 2-3 handed. It hasn't cost you too much to see it, so feel free throwing it away knowing that SB is poor. Either he pushed to steal a little bit on a bluff, or he blew his load and didn't win anything when he had the nuts. Either way, don't feel bad. Feel happy that just by entering the same tournament, he's effectively given you money (long run). Wait to catch him...

FWIW: I think you probably had 9 or 13outs on him (i'd put him on an overpair, or TPTK depending on cards and PF betting, reads, position, etc). Which probably puts you at about 38%-45% to win the pot.