PLO8 $400 vs. LAG

[Wintermute]

Villain:

{{TOT HANDS: 440 - BB/100: 36.8
VP$IP: 63 - PFR: 15
WON: $1,297 - CR: 0.29
WSD: 33.7 - W$SD: 57.6}}

Previous hand:

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: HotTotty ( $398 )
Seat 9: Johny9ball ( $543.60 )
Seat 3: Hero ( $357.40 )
Seat 4: MikeBklynAk ( $229.90 )
Seat 5: EthansMyBoy ( $391.50 )
Seat 8: martinc59 ( $170.70 )
Seat 6: Villain ( $406.50 )
Seat 10: TwisterTyke ( $96 )
Seat 2: nico7777 ( $371 )
Seat 1: soapwith ( $392 )
martinc59 posts small blind [$2].
TwisterTyke posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qd Kd 5s As ]

soapwith raises [$14].
nico7777 calls [$14].
Hero calls [$14].
EthansMyBoy folds.
Villain calls [$14].
HotTotty folds.
martinc59 calls [$12].
TwisterTyke folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 8s, Th ]

martinc59 bets [$4].
soapwith calls [$4].
nico7777 calls [$4].
Hero calls [$4].
Villain raises [$95].
martinc59 folds.
soapwith folds.
nico7777 folds.
Hero folds.
Villain does not show cards.
Villain wins $182

Looks like it was a pretty obvious steal, I almost shoved when the action got to me actually. But anyhow I figure he's in the mood to try to shove the table around and probably is feeling his oats... this comes into play on next hand:


$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10

Seat 7: HotTotty ( $398 )
Seat 9: Johny9ball ( $543.60 )
Seat 3: Hero ( $339.40 )
Seat 4: MikeBklynAk ( $229.90 )
Seat 5: EthansMyBoy ( $391.50 )
Seat 8: martinc59 ( $152.70 )
Seat 6: Villain ( $479.50 )
Seat 10: TwisterTyke ( $92 )
Seat 2: nico7777 ( $353 )
Seat 1: soapwith ( $374 )
TwisterTyke posts small blind [$2].
soapwith posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ad As Ac Jc ]

nico7777 calls [$4].
Hero calls [$4].
MikeBklynAk folds.
EthansMyBoy calls [$4].
Villain raises [$20].
HotTotty folds.
martinc59 folds.
TwisterTyke folds.
soapwith folds.
nico7777 calls [$16].
Hero calls [$16].
EthansMyBoy calls [$16].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 9c, 3d ]

nico7777 checks.
Hero checks.
EthansMyBoy checks.
Villain bets [$60].
nico7777 folds.
Hero raises [$263].

Routine? Or anyone not like this?

That's why LAGs can win big bucks. You almost shoved with a gutshot, and then did shove with just an overpair. If he snaps you once with the goods it'll pay for the times he folds without them. In the latter hand, I think it might be worth a shot, but it sucks having almost no redraw of any kind. Of course, playing AAAJ in PLO8, you threw out most chances for a flop with redraws. I like the idea of playing back at him, but I'd have probably been more patient than making that stand with AAAJ OOP. Of course, I only play $25-100 tables and am relatively new.

Curious how it worked out.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why LAGs can win big bucks. You almost shoved with a gutshot, and then did shove with just an overpair. If he snaps you once with the goods it'll pay for the times he folds without them.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a good point, but I fail to see the connection between my almost-shove in the first hand and his LAG strategy working to perfection or whatever. The first hand would've been a play against the table, having nothing to do with Villain in particular.

[Big Dave D]

Not sure how "g" in the LAG he can be with stats like that...I haven't seen any ring players in either game who are long term winners with a VIP over 60.

Anyway, to the hand in question I think the problem with making the play is that you need some draw backup. The idea combination is a hand that may be infront, some passing equity (maybe imagined) and a good draw just in case.

I have some examples of this on you-know-where here (http://internetpokerpro.blogspot.com/2005/01/fierce-creatures.html) and here (http://internetpokerpro.blogspot.com/2005/01/radar-down.html)

If you feel he's on a steal, push as much money as you can into the pot. That's a major way of making money at this game. Of course I've done that into the nuts before with my entire stack, but oh well.
Also, AAAJ? Don't know if it's worth the 4 bucks preflop, especially not raise.

[emptyshell]

I think he folds > 50% of the time here, so it might be a good move. Of course, though, your pot odds are much worse than this. If he has a hand, he raises you allin and (I assume) you would call. There's also a bit better chance that he has a reasonable hand, since you hold almost all of the aces -- he very well may be playing a high wrap.

Unless you are afraid villain is leaving the table soon, I'm not sure why you don't wait for a quality hand to play preflop. I'd play this hand for kicks for $4, but it's not worth a raise. The flop is about the best you can reasonably hope for (in hope that your aces are good), so might as well give it a shot.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, to the hand in question I think the problem with making the play is that you need some draw backup. The idea combination is a hand that may be infront, some passing equity (maybe imagined) and a good draw just in case.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

I mean if he calls or raises, you are drawing dead you know, he is lag, but still at least do it with some sort of something.

[emptyshell]

What does the "g" stand for?

[ QUOTE ]
What does the "g" stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]
Grumpy. From what I know there are several different kinds of LAs.

LAG: Loose Aggressive Grumpy - these guys are like a bear with a sore tooth, look out. They'll pot every street as quickly as possible, so be sure you have the nuts.

LAB: Loose Aggressive Bored - an otherwise good player who got bored a few orbits ago and is looking for action. Will fold to pressure. Optimal strategy is to play back at them hard with anything.

LAM: Loose Aggressive Mouse - 'churchy' or weak tight who's trying to be a LAG. They're awful players and often give away their hand, so watch closely for reads. Optimal strategy is to raise with semi decent hands and draws, fold the rest.

LAA: Loose Aggressive [censored] - These guys have a ton of money and like throwing it around and dominating the table. They are incredibly dangerous but also incredibly profitable. Say hello to variance.

LAT: Loose aggressive Tilter - These guys just got sucked out on a couple of times, and they're entitled to the next pot, damnit! This type can be identified by looking for 'lol' in the chat box following a bad beat, and possibly abusive and/or instructive chat.

Best strategy against this type is to isolate reraise them, and let them bet off their chips. They especially dislike being checkraised all in, and will call with anything to prove they're not intimidated. Don't wait too long as this type will either lose their money fast or double up through a suckout and go back to watching "Barely Legal Gang Bangs #10" and playing like a rock.

[DyessMan89]

Hand 1 is a routine fold on the flop, and Hand 2 is a routine fold preflop. I dont know, maybe Im missing something here? What do you expect to make with AAAJ? Only thing I see with your hand is the very slight possiblity of AJ combo straight or a club flush.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
What does the "g" stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Girlyman.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is a routine fold on the flop, and Hand 2 is a routine fold preflop. I dont know, maybe Im missing something here? What do you expect to make with AAAJ? Only thing I see with your hand is the very slight possiblity of AJ combo straight or a club flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dyessman, sometimes in poker it is advantageous to bet when you are actually behind in a hand. This is called "bluffing". The principle requirement for a successful bluff is called "fold equity": the likelihood that a player will fold, converted into EV. In addition, there is a more nuanced version of the bluff called the "semibluff", which occurs when you are bluffing with a decent draw. It's a combination of all these things that is going on in this hand, and it was *never* my plan to only continue postflop with a straight or catching the case ace to make top set.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is a routine fold on the flop, and Hand 2 is a routine fold preflop. I dont know, maybe Im missing something here? What do you expect to make with AAAJ? Only thing I see with your hand is the very slight possiblity of AJ combo straight or a club flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dyessman, sometimes in poker it is advantageous to bet when you are actually behind in a hand. This is called "bluffing". The principle requirement for a successful bluff is called "fold equity": the likelihood that a player will fold, converted into EV. In addition, there is a more nuanced version of the bluff called the "semibluff", which occurs when you are bluffing with a decent draw. It's a combination of all these things that is going on in this hand, and it was *never* my plan to only continue postflop with a straight or catching the case ace to make top set.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is this thing called "Play Money". If you want to call a 16 buck raise with AAAJ, then this is where you belong. The second hand is as routine of a fold as it gets. Hand 1 you can keep bleeding your chips away on a gutshot straight draw ... fine by me.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
There is this thing called "Play Money". If you want to call a 16 buck raise with AAAJ, then this is where you belong. The second hand is as routine of a fold as it gets. Hand 1 you can keep bleeding your chips away on a gutshot straight draw ... fine by me.

[/ QUOTE ]
DMan, I'm sorry for this, but it needs to be said. You are a fking retard when it comes to PLO8. Your advice is completely wrong the majority of the time.

As an example, take my play on hand 1. Drawing to a gutshot. I would like you to examine my odds of making that gutshot in relation to the pot odds being offered by that minbet into a pot that was raised preflop.

Furthermore, as a service to you (and a public service to this forum), I recommend that you go learn the meaning of the following list of concepts, practice applying them in an actual game, and then gradually return to posting:

-pot odds
-implied odds
-bluff
-value bet
-semibluff
-table image

You can learn about most of these issues with the book Theory of Poker, available at 2+2 press.

I can't imagine how anyone with even a vague understanding of these concepts could compose posts as bad as yours.

Enjoy!

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is this thing called "Play Money". If you want to call a 16 buck raise with AAAJ, then this is where you belong. The second hand is as routine of a fold as it gets. Hand 1 you can keep bleeding your chips away on a gutshot straight draw ... fine by me.

[/ QUOTE ]
As an example, take my play on hand 1. Drawing to a gutshot. I would like you to examine my odds of making that gutshot in relation to the pot odds being offered by that minbet into a pot that was raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.

I mean, am I that unclear to you? You are a huge dumbass for posting such a terrible thread, and are a bigger dumbass for trying to argue against folding in either of the hands.

If you dont believe me ... read some of the other posts in this thread. Do they really advocate playing both aggressivley?

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.


[/ QUOTE ]
What the FK are you talking about? Evidently your reading comprehension skills are for sh!t too. I folded to the raise, you fking dumbass piece of sh!t.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.


[/ QUOTE ]
What the FK are you talking about? Evidently your reading comprehension skills are for sh!t too. I folded to the raise, you fking dumbass piece of sh!t.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAA LMAO LMAO

This is like talking to a brick wall. Only that brick wall plays better O/8. Stop talking, please.

EDIT- I never said you actually made the call. Wowzer.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.


[/ QUOTE ]
What the FK are you talking about? Evidently your reading comprehension skills are for sh!t too. I folded to the raise, you fking dumbass piece of sh!t.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 89 in his name is the year he was born evidently. Kids get that special feeling when they turn 16. Special School that is.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.


[/ QUOTE ]
What the FK are you talking about? Evidently your reading comprehension skills are for sh!t too. I folded to the raise, you fking dumbass piece of sh!t.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 89 in his name is the year he was born evidently. Kids get that special feeling when they turn 16. Special School that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of school, Im sure you got made fun of a lot with a name like Graham Ribchester. It had to be hard to hear your name called for attendance. Im sure you were laughed at every time. That pretty much explains why you are so hostile now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The 89 does not stand for the year, if youd like me to give a long explanation, Id be glad to.

I love this forum. Even the flames are of excellent quality.
NH, Sirs. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]

Speaking of school, Im sure you got made fun of a lot with a name like Graham Ribchester. [\quote]

Nope, England is full of interesting names with historic references. For someone who is "sure", you couldn't be further from the truth, how coincidental that it also refers to your thoughts on poker.
You're posts are boring to read, even your lame attempts at insults are tedious and repetitive.
You're extremely dull, and terrible at poker, if there was an aptitude test for posting here, you would fail miserably.
I'm sat here laughing at how pathetic you are, go back to yahoo chat rooms where your insults might work on some 12 year old kid.

[Drizztdj]

Did he call or raise? I see raise.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You arent that retarted, are you? Noone was doubting your original call, I was doubting the call after the huge raise. You need to learn how to read posts before flaming.


[/ QUOTE ]
What the FK are you talking about? Evidently your reading comprehension skills are for sh!t too. I folded to the raise, you fking dumbass piece of sh!t.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAA LMAO LMAO

This is like talking to a brick wall. Only that brick wall plays better O/8. Stop talking, please.

EDIT- I never said you actually made the call. Wowzer.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize, don't you, that you are criticizing me for making a call that you admit I never made?

Sigh.

1) You should seriously consider never posting again.

2) As a preemptive measure (since procreation may at some point becomes an option for you, however unlikely that may be), you should castrate yourself to prevent your genetic deficiencies from being passed on to another poor soul. I mean, have some compassion, man.

3) As a third option, you could just kill yourself, efficiently accomplishing both (1) and (2).

[Wintermute]

BTW, he folded. I too, wasn't too thrilled with the play right after I made it, just wanted to confirm here, thanks.

[Drizztdj]

Personally I see the play as +EV if you have at least some fold equity and possible outs.

Nicely played based on table image Winter.

[DyessMan89]

Ribbo, please learn how to quote properly before attempting to insult anyone.

Not to mention you used the wrong form of "Your". You are posts? You sure Im the one still in school?

Good day.