This hand is on trial for crimes against decency

[B Dids]

I feel like I butchered this... HARD.

I'm in the BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

It's a soft table, the only guy who isn't a loose chasing fish is the SB.

UTG limps, The CO limps, the Button limps, SB raises. I don't have much of a read on him, but he seems pretty straight forward, maybe a little timmid post flop.

I call? Everbody calls.

Flop is 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

At this point I'm ready to fold to any bet, but it gets checked through.

The turn is the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets, my thought is that he's either got a monster, or something like JJ or QQ that he was frightened with. I raise with the intention of folding to a raise, but hoping that I can take down a decent sized pot right there.

Everybody folds but the button, who is mostly unknown but like the rest of the table a bad loose passive.

River 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I'm a little stuck here. It's a large pot, and while I could easily be ahead at this point, I also could be crushed about three ways. I feel like I have to bet/fold here given the pot that I've now bloated.

So I bet...

Is there any street that we don't hate?

[krimson]

I like the whole thing, personally.

If sb had an ace I think he would have just lead out on the flop, after raising it pre-flop. The turn raise potentionally folds stronger kings than ours. Once the button calls it's hard to tell if we're behind a weak ace or some pocket pair. But if he had some weak ace, wouldn't he have bet the flop when checked to? He seems pretty passive either way so I'm not going to c/c here since I doubt he will bluff very often.

[Spicymoose]

I don't know why you would fold the flop for a single bet. I would raise if SB bet, and probably just call if someone else did. I'm not sure about the turn raise, as I don't know what draws you are trying to get to fold. You are good sometimes, but I don't see what raising really accomplishes, given that your equity isn't all that high. River seems fine.

[B Dids]

I'm ready to fold the flop basically because I shouldn't have called preflop. Vs. the SB's likely range, I don't love where I'm at given that I didn't flop a straight or a boat /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Once he's made his range a little clearer (I think he bets here with AK, AQ, maybe KK, and checks with AA (he could bet AA to, but once he checked I'm putting that in his range), QQ, JJ and lower AND the flop has been checked through. I fee better about my holding and want to take a shot at the pot.

[thejameser]

i could fold pf. i could not raise the turn. i would check/call the river.

[purnell]

Given the read, folding preflop is tempting. I would be thinking "lots of opponents, pretty weak offsuit hand, bad position, me no like." On the other hand you're getting big pot odds on a call, as long as there is no reraise behind you.

I guess I like your line post-flop, but there is no clear path on this one, IMO. You could try to take over the pot on the flop, since the players between you and sb might fear sb's check-raise, but if you do that you can easily be bluffed off the best hand. meh.

[kidcolin]

I think I fold this nearly every time preflop. KTo eats multiway, especially in a pot where it's likely to be dominated.

I think I like your turn play. River I'm clueless. I might check-call, but not overcall? I learned a lesson a while ago that overcalling doesn't suck as bad when one of your opponents is a real donkey. Would button bet a non-ace hand if you check?

[Perseus]

I think c/c this river is a good line, as you aren't getting much value out of a river bet and the button (from your description) is passive enough to check it through even with a bad ace or better king.

[silkyslim]

I would fold pf. On the flop, you are getting odds for your 5 outs even if you arent good. I like the turn raise. You might be ahead for the reasoning you suggested, plus everyone checked thru the flop. The raise protects beautifully. On the river I would c/c. He is most likely being a donkey with a small ace, or he wissed a flush draw and will fold. You are only value betting against a 2 (unlikely) and a crappier king (maybe).

[B Dids]

FWIW I think bet/fold > check/call.

I don't think he's betting a worse king that often, I get no value from anything I beat here.

I agree that this is a clear fold preflop. I wasn't exactly playing my best poker as PITTM can attest to.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm ready to fold the flop basically because I shouldn't have called preflop. Vs. the SB's likely range, I don't love where I'm at given that I didn't flop a straight or a boat /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that there are 3 limpers in the pot who aren't very good, I think you can expand SB's range to include anything that plays well multiway and especially against people who will fish, which includes lots of suited connectors and one-gappers. So given the expanded range and your immediate odds, I think the preflop call is fine.

I like the whole line, especially the turn raise. If SB is the only caller on the turn, I take a free showdown if checked to (probably fold to a donk). In this case, where Button is the only caller, I like bet/fold on the river, but I don't think check/calling is bad.

[PokerNoob]

The bet is only good if he'll call King worse kicker, but since you're going to call anyway, you might as well bet. OTOH, if he's really passive or incapable of bluffing, there's nothing wrong with the free showdown. On the third hand, you played this because the opponents are loose chasing fish, so lets see that king worse kicker, TT, whatever he'll call.

[aslowjoe]

I am tighter them most pre flop but I think getting 9-1 on your call against bad players s just fine. Now I guess this is the exact flop you do not want to see. I agree with whole line of reasoning on the hand. You bet the river because SB will call for 1 more with his QQ and bttn will call with his 88 or raise with his 66 which you could fold too. Well played.

[ddubois]

Button's play is consistent with a turned flush draw, so checking to induce a bluff isn't unreasonable.

[joker122]

pretty much the only hands that call 2 on the turn are a club draw or a diamon draw or an ace. so i check call the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any street that we don't hate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Good check on the flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Seriously though, folding preflop with everyone left behind you isn't as bad as it seems. The SB is the last guy you want to mix it up with and he showed tremendous strength by raising the field from his position.

The turn raise is very questionable, but you got lucky. It makes no sense to say "he would have bet the flop with an ace", simply because he cannot have just 'an ace' considering his preflop play. He either has AK, AA, KK or QQ. He's a favorite not to have QQ, but you got lucky on the turn in that aspect.

Once the button calls 2 cold on the turn you should c/c the river. A bet accomplishes nothing but getting him to fold a draw or getting him to call with an ace or better. Check/calling may pick off a bluff, and if it checks through, you usually win.

[B Dids]

I'm well aware that he could have AA or KK, I'm insta folding to a raise. But if he doesn't, I get to win the pot right there a lot, which was the attempt.

[TwoNiner]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I have to bet/fold here given the pot that I've now bloated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, that's why it's definitely a check-call. You don't want to be bluffed off this pot given the likelyhood of a busted flush draw. You want to induce the bluff and grab the extra bet. Or you want a better hand to maybe check behind saving a bet, which is also a definite possibility given your turn raise.

Preflop: is a fold. Huge possibility of Big Pair or Ace-King, and your trapped with bad relative position in a big field with a hand that will hit mediocre hands.

[tansoku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there any street that we don't hate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Good check on the flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

If you lead the flop, and the other weak players come along, it gives SB a great chance to chk-raise and trap everyone for another bet.
Seems like it gives you a way to define his hand, and only costs you 1 SB to find out.
I guess it comes down to whether you think he'd chk-raise with a hand you are ahead of.
Is a flop lead really that bad?

[Drontier]

i fold hands better than this if its 3 bet to me on the bb. easy fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Is a flop lead really that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If he 'defines his hand', you lose.

[B Dids]

This wasn't 3-bet.

there's not a lot of hands better I don't call with in his spot here.

[Drontier]

o wow i must have read it wrong. why are u thinking of folding this pf then? this is such an easy call. i thought it was 3 bet and u called. i was about to say what are you doing.