10/20 NL: Flopped nut Str8 on a monotone flop!: Line Check!

[hit_the_set]

Stacks.

Villian has about 2400 and Hero covers. Cant remember the bet sizes correctly but its pretty close.

Hero has 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in SB. Two limpers including button(button is not such a good player. Not crazy but overplays TPWK and 2 pairs.Will raise preflop with any two over cards). I have been playing aggro against the button and he is definitely looking to get back after I pushed him off a couple of hands and showed him a bluff.

Hero completes.

Flop j /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets 40, Button calls 40, Hero raises to 150, MP calls, Button raises to 500.

Call or push?

He could have something like 10,J or 7,10. He would have raised any decent ace or pair from the button. He could have limped in with a decent suited connector!

Here's what I thought.

1. Call the reraise and C/r any non heart turn.
2. Lead for a pot size bet on the turn?

[gomberg]

Given how you played it, this could for sure be fold. If you read a draw, then call and do a stop and go if no heart, board pairing comes. CRing the turn could be disastorous. Pushing can't be too bad either if he is the type to call with many hands - but the player in between you has something as well.

I really hate your flop line. I'd bet out or check call. It's a limped, multi-way pot and there could easily be a flush out there already - with more than one player showing interest.

[hit_the_set]

[ QUOTE ]
Given how you played it, this could for sure be fold. If you read a draw, then call and do a stop and go if no heart, board pairing comes. CRing the turn could be disastorous. Pushing can't be too bad either if he is the type to call with many hands - but the player in between you has something as well.

I really hate your flop line. I'd bet out or check call. It's a limped, multi-way pot and there could easily be a flush out there already - with more than one player showing interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button is definitely the type to call with many hands. MP is this hand a tight aggressive player. I put the MP on a draw or the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif after he cold calls the raise. I did not put the MP on a flush. Isnt that a strange line from the button? He calls the 40 and then reraises...

I hate to lose big pots in an unraised hand but I wanted to see how the action goes against a player whos looking to get me.

[rwanger]

[ QUOTE ]

Isnt that a strange line from the button? He calls the 40 and then reraises...


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play 10/20, but yes, that is a strange line. It's the strange line of someone who flopped a flush.

[JFB37]

[ QUOTE ]

It's the strange line of someone who flopped a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And he doesn't have the Ace. He wants to get out the Ace.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Isnt that a strange line from the button? He calls the 40 and then reraises...


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play 10/20, but yes, that is a strange line. It's the strange line of someone who flopped a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. I think button now puts you on a set or something that's live and wants to get the money in with his hand while it's good. In any case, it's foolhardy to get further involved in this pot without a redraw; if you're up against a flush you are dead dead dead.

If, say, you are up against a set and the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, which also might give you this kind of action, then you have .33 EV, which is marginally profitable given the size of the pot, but doesn't outweigh the .00 EV you have the times you go up against a flush. Plus it's crazy variance.

Bottom line, you don't want to play a big pot here, so things that inflate the size of the pot (like check-raises and reraises) are mistakes.

[gomberg]

Good post - that's what I was trying to say with mine /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hit_the_set]

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct. I think button now puts you on a set or something that's live and wants to get the money in with his hand while it's good. In any case, it's foolhardy to get further involved in this pot without a redraw; if you're up against a flush you are dead dead dead.

If, say, you are up against a set and the A, which also might give you this kind of action, then you have .33 EV, which is marginally profitable given the size of the pot, but doesn't outweigh the .00 EV you have the times you go up against a flush. Plus it's crazy variance.

Bottom line, you don't want to play a big pot here, so things that inflate the size of the pot (like check-raises and reraises) are mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]


Does your reasoning change If i tell you that the game is being played shorthanded and I have a great read on the villain? I just did not think he made the flush on the flop. Anyway, I called the flop reraise. Turn is a K /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check, He goes allin for the rest(something like 1800 i think). Oooops....Against some opponents on the party 10/20 NL, I would instafold this. But this guy is a fish and bluffs with air and 0 outs!..Now what?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are correct. I think button now puts you on a set or something that's live and wants to get the money in with his hand while it's good. In any case, it's foolhardy to get further involved in this pot without a redraw; if you're up against a flush you are dead dead dead.

If, say, you are up against a set and the A, which also might give you this kind of action, then you have .33 EV, which is marginally profitable given the size of the pot, but doesn't outweigh the .00 EV you have the times you go up against a flush. Plus it's crazy variance.

Bottom line, you don't want to play a big pot here, so things that inflate the size of the pot (like check-raises and reraises) are mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]


Does your reasoning change If i tell you that the game is being played shorthanded and I have a great read on the villain? I just did not think he made the flush on the flop. Anyway, I called the flop reraise. Turn is a K /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check, He goes allin for the rest(something like 1800 i think). Oooops....Against some opponents on the party 10/20 NL, I would instafold this. But this guy is a fish and bluffs with air and 0 outs!..Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm telling you that when you see this sequence of actions:

player 1: bet
player 2: call
player 3: raise
player 1: call
player 2: reraise

player 2 has an enormously powerful hand almost every single time.

[ahnuld]

Havnt read the thread, but if it wasnt for the coldcaller, I think this is a pretty clear allin or fold. From your description he could have anything including the nuts or a pair of jacks. You beat most hands, so I probably put him on maybe the bare A /images/graemlins/heart.gif but more likly something liek Jx with the A or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The problem ois the cold caller and what he has. He needs something and it very well could be the Ah making it less likely button is full of it. So in my mind button now has the K :heart with something like a J or a Q for the straight draw or the made flush. In anycase you're in a bad spot. I like folding 60% of the time and calling 40% of the time. If you call and coldcaller comes along, you're very dead on any heart anyways, so try to give yourself a better price. If he does have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif I dont think he'd fold right now given the odds. If he does fold, well maybe the button does have the ace after all.

Given no hearts hit the turn, I think I just open push. Might do the same on a paired board, but its very hard to get someone to lay down a flush trying to represent a fh.

Tricky hand, but theres no shame in just laying it down on the flop.

[cero_z]

Hi hts,

[ QUOTE ]
Does your reasoning change If i tell you that the game is being played shorthanded and I have a great read on the villain? I just did not think he made the flush on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is starting to sound suspiciously like a thread whose only purpose is to deify the poster, who made a great play despite all evidence he was beaten. Of course it changes things if you "know" he doesn't have it; that's why reads should be included the first time around, as should the fact that you're shorthanded. It definitely looks from the flop action alone that you are up against a flush; if your read says otherwise, then act accordingly. But as most folks here have already told you, you shouldn't generally be trying to play a big pot on a monotone flop unless you have a flush.

[AggieAce]

So, you put them on the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif why? Because it's pretty much all you can beat! Fold.

[DyessMan89]

LEAD THE ********** FLOP. Stop going for the damn check-raise.

[/rant]

[aceferret]

If he is really that bad, I find a much better spot to put all my chips in against him.

It sounds like you pushed and won, but a very bad play reguardless of the read. Maybe in a live game I can call w a great read, but otherwise clear fold.

[Lucky]

If you have a great read, go with it. But dont make the point of this post that is ever anything but a fold generally.

[hit_the_set]

Yes. I called and he flipped over 8 j ..no hearts! MHIG

This hand was very much read and table dependent. After reading all the responses, It does make me look like an idiot for making that call /images/graemlins/mad.gif. Looks like calling is definitely -EV here no matter how good my read may be.

Thanks for all the responses. I just cant fold made hands. Maybe its a leak I have to work on,

Can someone here comeup with a EV formula that has some kind of a read factor included in it? /images/graemlins/smile.gif (If you know what I am saying)

[creedofhubris]

Go to pokerstove, put villain on a range of hands, and include: .25: 72o to incorporate times villain is bluffing.