Level 3 - TT - UTG

[Scuba Chuck]

Negative EV and I were discussing this hand, and I'm surprised on how differently we play this hand. Negative EV limps here, and I raise.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.


My general question is this, how do you play this hand here preflop? Postflop? I know I'm being vague, but I like it that way.
Furthermore, if you advocate limping preflop, be sure to discuss how you're handling a raise, as well as if you raise here, how you handle a push. And don't forget postflop.

[Ogre]

i raise to 150 i never limp

[ace_in_the_hole]

I tend to play TT pretty passivly, at least at the lower levels. I find it too diffucult to play postflop, so i just limp for set value unless I am in LP and I want to pick up blinds.

[unreal_nh]

whether to raise or limp i think it depends alot on the table... tight/loose/aggressive/passive.. and go from there

[Scuba Chuck]

Since I can't get an answer to the question, I'll post mine.

The table was generally average. Not overly tight, and certainly not loose.

I generally don't care for my position here, and I don't care for limping or folding. I raise to t150. If I am reraised allin by one individual, I'm calling. In general, IME, if I am called here, it is 95% of the time, AJ+, and the other 5%, it's AA. That might be pretty narrow, but that's just how I feel. So I will proceed forward on the flop with that in mind.

There are certainly some variations of my play on this hand depending on my stack size.

[bjb23]

so youd play this the exact same way with 99?..88??... what is your cutoff here?

I think this is a rare situation where a minraise is good.

First, you are in early position and a lot of people play AA this way (and expect it to be played this way), lending you a bit more FE for a continuation bet. Second, you invest the minimum in a hand you will probably have to fold more than half the time (I'm folding to a big reraise preflop and to a strong bet on overcards on the flop at this level). Third, if you get a few callers you can sometimes take down a big pot if you flop a set and somebody thinks their TP is good, or decides to take a stand with a lower pocket pair.

Of course, minraising and folding to preflop reraise is contextual. If there are one or two maniacs who mindlessly bet into weakness, it might be good to limp-reraise either of them allin to get it heads up when they inevitably raise your limp preflop. If the table is overly passive, I wouldn't mind a largish bet like 200 here, knowing most times you'll take it down preflop. If there is a calling station who is loose preflop and weak/tight postflop, take the pot down on most flops with 1/2 potsized continuation bet. 1010 is a good hand, but you're in horrible position and it's an early level.

Against an average table I think a min-raise is good here.

[Newt_Buggs]

I'de raise it up to 125.

[durron597]

I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said.

TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips.

If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop.

[UMTerp]

What does he do? Limp/call? Limp/reraise? I think limp/calling would be terrible. What do you do when an ace comes? Or two overcards? Just raise to 150.

[Sciolist]

I don't think there's any set value here. He has 900 chips and the BB is 50, you have to stack someone very frequently for an utg limp to be worthwhile, and if someone raises, you won't have any kind of odds to call on a set draw.

I am raising this 150-175, I'm passing to any kind of reraise, and I'm going to be likely making a decent bet on the flop unless it comes 2 overcards or I get more than one or two callers with an ace or king on the flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said.

TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips.

If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

[/ QUOTE ]

The buyin impacts my play here somewhat. In a $11-$33 a preflop 125 raise (my standard on this level) gets a 3+ way pot in this spot too often for me to be comfortable from UTG (BB is calling and another call on the way is likely given 7 players left). This play was from a $22/$33 and Hero's stack is fine to limp and make a decision based on the action behind.

In a $109+ raising here will take the pot preflop or get HU enough that I like that play better there.

[Cactus Jack]

This is one of the best hand questions I've seen. IMO, there is no right way to play it, and no wrong way. Here's my thought process, ala the way Harrington does it in HOH.

Now, I'm going to play this hand. No way I'm folding it. There are no maniacs left at this point who are going to do something stupid. There's no big stack who will push me off. My future in this SNG is now.

Depending on the table and the history, the table is at its weaksest/tightest point. The blinds aren't high and the stacks aren't spread out. Those left are waiting on "big hands." This is a very good place to play this hand.

I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ or K7 at this point in the tourney, which is least likely to happen, anyway. It would leave me with 700 chips should something bad happen behind me, like a push and a call. I can certainly live with losing a hundred. A mini-raise here doesn't necessarily show weakness. Anyone who thinks it does, I'll play.

A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it, neither of which makes me a happy camper. I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result. 75 chips more isn't going to make me a favorite and this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual and I may be crippled to the point of "it's just a matter of time," if it doesn't go my way, and there's lot of ways that aren't my way.

Limping is not an option. Too good a hand. A raise and I'm in the weeds. I'll have no idea where I am, other than out of position. I don't care for set value here, as a set would be overkill. Nice, but not reasonable.

I could push here. A semi-bluff. A little early to be changing gears, I'd rather it be the next round, but that's coming soon. They haven't seen me play many hands, and those they've seen me play, were most likely very good cards. I've got as much of a strong image at this point as I'm likely to have. Any 2 face cards and weak Ax could beat me, but it would be a pretty ballsy call and I'm ahead of them. I'm behind AA, KK, QQ, and JJ at this point, and would be very bad, but worse if I only raise. I'm even with AK and AQ. Everything else, I'm ahead, as long as it's only one caller.

A limp is out. A mini-raise and I may get 2 callers, one behind me and the BB or SB. 2 or more callers puts me at a severe disadvantage. A 3X raise puts my tournament on the line, sooner or later, regardless of the result if it's not a positive result. All in makes it likely that I'll get no more than one call. (More than one and I win, the cash register rings.) I've got a good hand in this spot, and at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.

I push it all in and take my chances.

CJ

[bennies]

I see 3 options:

1) Push
2) Check/Push (fold if villain pot commits himself)
3) Check/fold (call a tiny bet)

I prefer number 1.

[durron597]

Assuming you always get allin on the flop against the CO, let's assume you have 7 outs twice (he has an ace and a KQJ). Thus you are about 28% to win by the river. You are getting 870:495 on your money, meaning out of 100 times you lose 35640 chips and win 24360, for an average loss of 113 chips. However if he folds to your push, you win the 375 chips in the middle, meaning you only need him to fold about 25% of the time for a push to be 0 EV. Of course if he has two pair you have 10 outs twice, and he might fold a hand like AJ (this is a small% of the time).

So yeah, I guess because of his short stack pushing is slightly +EV whereas folding is obviously 0 EV.

[fnord_too]

Pre-flop is really table/situation dependant for me. Usually I raise, sometimes I push. There are tons of factors that influence that decision. If I raise and someone pushes, the calling/folding decision really depends on who pushes. How aggressive they are preflop and their stack size will be big factors here. Also, if anyone is left in between us. If I limp and am raised, again, what I do is highly situationally dependant.

Post flop, more of the same. Depends entirely on the situation. Flop texture is huge, opponent is huge, how I have been playing hands and how many hands I have played is important. Opponent is huge. With a non ace one overcard board, there is a good chance I'm putting some chips in the pot, probably all of them if I am first to act and raised pre flop. Again, though, everything is very situationally dependant.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a horrible flop. I don't know what I do there. Sometimes I push, sometimes I check. Checking is not that bad, that is an uber scary board and villian is apt to check behind if it did not hit him thinking you could be trapping here. Pushing is not horrible since villian only has t500ish left, and the pot is 375. I think a lot here depends on how villain plays. Against an aggressive villain I am more apt to push, against a passive one I am more apt to check/fold the flop, and maybe bet the turn unimporved (though not push) or check if the flop gets checked through.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you always get allin on the flop against the CO, let's assume you have 7 outs twice (he has an ace and a KQJ). Thus you are about 28% to win by the river. You are getting 870:495 on your money, meaning out of 100 times you lose 35640 chips and win 24360, for an average loss of 113 chips. However if he folds to your push, you win the 375 chips in the middle, meaning you only need him to fold about 25% of the time for a push to be 0 EV. Of course if he has two pair you have 10 outs twice, and he might fold a hand like AJ (this is a small% of the time).

So yeah, I guess because of his short stack pushing is slightly +EV whereas folding is obviously 0 EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is chip ev, not cashing ev (I don't know what cashing EV here is, because I am too lazy to calculate it, but cashing ev definitely needs to be considered here). Also, there is a chance he checks behind (I know you said assuming you always get all in on the flop, but I think that assumption is too big), so not pushing is not like open folding. Also, if he folds to your push, there is a good chance you had high pot equity, so you would win the 375 quite frequently even if you checked (unless he stole the pot from you).

PUSH

[schwza]

i would raise pre-flop. the blinds are big enough that winning them is pretty valuable. your hand is strong enough that it's not too bad to call a single push.

i wish the converter labeled the seats button, CO, MP3, MP2, MP1 when there were 7 people. raising here looks a lot more appealing if you don't mention the dreaded "UTG."

i like a check on the flop. the villain is not folding to your push very often - pretty much the only hands that will are things like 88, AJ. and as fnord said, this is a pretty scary flop for villain - i think you often get a free card from a hand like AQ or 88. then make a small bet on the turn if it's a blank.

i'm surprised some people were saying to open-push pre-flop. that play is rough b/c villains will say (correctly) "hero wouldn't push for 16x if he had AA." so they can narrow your range and call more often.

[GtrHtr]

I have never ever never ever ever never ever limped a hand outside of being in the blinds on level 3.

I find that interesting. Do you see why?

btw, 45 suited says this is a push.

Gtr

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said.

TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips.

If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna flame my ass but on that flop I'd push way more often than I'd check. Leak of mine? maybe. But here is my thought process on how I'd play the hand:

PF, raise 3x or 4x BB - you get one caller. What is he thinking? If he isn't a total donk, he knows you have a hand by raising that much from that position. A hand in this case is JJ-AA or AK. That ugly flop comes and you push = in this case improving your hand and you think hes a calling station. I'll go one further and say he is holding AQ or AJ, in an 11 maybe AT which is trouble but thats life. Plus you've still got some outs.

gtr

[jeffraider]

Well hey!!! This is a situation that I've actually spent a ton of time thinking about. Here is my "right" answer:

Raise to 150 and call nearly any pushes behind you. You still get beat by better hands but you also let lots of worse hands play all-in with you preflop and double you up. Many many people will come over the top with 77 and worse here, or A9, etc. Postflop, I've detailed my general foundations below, but in this specific flop of KQJ I check-fold 100% of the time. You get free cards from hands you beat but from no one else.

Folding is bad because you've got a great hand to double up on.

Pushing is bad because you still get called by better hands but you make worse hands, hands that will double you up, fold preflop.

Calling is bad because by not taking the initiative you open yourself up to all kinds of trouble and you don't have enough chips to play purely for set value. Also, you're missing out on such a great opportunity to double up by calling.

Here's a write-up I did for another poker forum about the idea:

SNG Concept: 11-15BBs in Level 3 with a decent holding

This is a spot that I think I've started to play a lot different than most people, but I'm quite confident that it's a great play, based on my results and the reasoning behind it.

You're UTG in a Party 800-chip SNG. It's level 3 (blinds of 25/50) and you have 650 left. There are seven players left. You are dealt AJo. The usual theory here is to either go all-in or fold. Folding is okay because you have six people to go through and you don't really want a call for your whole stack with AJo. Pushing is okay because you do need the chips and your hand is pretty good.

I always raise it to 150 and call most reraises in these spots. Here's why:

1) You'll get aggressive players coming over the top of your initial raise with weaker hands like KJ and AT. This puts you in a decent spot to double up that you would have missed with a fold or a push, because KJ and AT will usually fold to a push, but may get tricky if they see a raise in front of them. It happens often enough to be profitable.

2) You can get called by the same dominated hands and see a flop as a favourite.

3) You still go broke to big hands, but you get value out of worse hands. I mean if you raise it to 150 and someone with 800 pushes and you call, you'll see dominating hands somewhat often, but the range I use for this means that I will be the dominating hand more often than dominated.

4) You can still fold to a reraise if it looks fishy or the action gets crazy behind you. This is good because if you push you lose this option. I've included a hand example of this as well.

5) You may win them blinds and you can also fold a better hand preflop. Careful players could muck AQ to your UTG raise. Mostly they won't but it's worth considering a plus.

6) Deception. I think most of us would raise our monsters like this too. I'd pop AA to 150 almost every time UTG, and if my opponents see me do it with AJ then I get more action if I get AA again. This is a smaller plus because it happens so rarely that an opponent may notice that you popped a weaker hand UTG and then decide to give you action based soley on that, but it's worth mentioning.

Here is my range of hands that I make this move with. AA-88, AK-AJ. Pretty tight range, so you won't be making this kind of play all the time, nor do I recommend it with any other hand. You don't want to make this play with AT because you'll see AJ+ more than you'll see A8-. Same reason you don't want to do it with 77 because you'll see 88+ more than 66-.

Here are some of the downsides:

1) You may have to play a flop out of position heads up. This isn't the end of the world, but it is tricky and requires good judgement and good postflop foundations because playing postflop with 350 in the pot and 500 in your stack is tricky and dangerous and won't be forgiving if you blow it. The good news about playing a flop like this is if you decide it's a good flop to push, you stand the chance of folding a better hand like AK if you have AJ, which you wouldn't have done preflop. Still, it's something to consider before you make this play. If you feel absolutely lost postflop in spots like this it might be best to keep out of trouble and just push/fold.

2) You might get three callers. This sucks but makes the postflop easy. If you hit you push and if you miss you check-fold.

3) You get beat by a better hand preflop. You'd almost certainly get called by a better hand if you pushed anways so not too much harm done. That's why my range is so tight for doing this, so I'm only really losing to hands I would have lost to anyways.

Required criteria for making the play

In my example I used UTG as the position we're playing from but really, this move is good from any position and is a testament to it's inherent strength that it works UTG as well. The stack size you want for this is about 11-15BBs, and pretty much only in level 3. Level 4 the blinds aren't as valuable if you have 1100-1400 because the next blind increase is smaller and you have a higher percentage of the chips in play. If you only have 600-700 in level 4 then you're push/folding for sure and not ever getting cutesy like this.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said.

TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips.

If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna flame my ass but on that flop I'd push way more often than I'd check. Leak of mine? maybe. But here is my thought process on how I'd play the hand:

PF, raise 3x or 4x BB - you get one caller. What is he thinking? If he isn't a total donk, he knows you have a hand by raising that much from that position. A hand in this case is JJ-AA or AK. That ugly flop comes and you push = in this case improving your hand and you think hes a calling station. I'll go one further and say he is holding AQ or AJ, in an 11 maybe AT which is trouble but thats life. Plus you've still got some outs.

gtr

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think the "donk" will put you on a JJ-AA, AK range then why would he call preflop with AT-AQ?

But I agree hero should push, hoping to fold out all J's and Q's.

[GtrHtr]

I wrote: If he isn't a total donk.

[pooh74]

I dont think there is any point to playing this hand UNLESS you raise...A limp will get raised more often, and you will then be OOP on a flop that is most times very scary for your hand.

[liucipher]

Just a thanks for posting this. I was playing a little too closely to the AM guide (limping PF) and I think I now see why that is too weak-tight.

[bennies]

sorry,
I still don't get it though, do you think the non-donk will put Hero on JJ+ and still call preflop with AQ?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is any point to playing this hand UNLESS you raise...A limp will get raised more often, and you will then be OOP on a flop that is most times very scary for your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this isn't completely true. If you're raised, NegEV and I agree that I'd then push preflop.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is any point to playing this hand UNLESS you raise...A limp will get raised more often, and you will then be OOP on a flop that is most times very scary for your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this isn't completely true. If you're raised, NegEV and I agree that I'd then push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you'd have to, especially to avoid the position dilema.

Well, the other reason I feel raising is better is merely the value of this hand is worth it. I dont think limping is good because of the other outcome, inviting limpers to limp behind. That would be simply throwing 50 chips away when you have a shortish stack as it is.

I hate to make a blanket rule, but I dont think limping UTG is EVER correct beyond level I, and even there I hate it. ( If I am sure a monster will be raised I might do it once in awhile, even then I feel my hand is given away when I RR AI)

I would like to hear NEgEV's reasoning though. Is he limping to rep a big(er) hand?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

[/ QUOTE ]

The buyin impacts my play here somewhat. In a $11-$33 a preflop 125 raise (my standard on this level) gets a 3+ way pot in this spot too often for me to be comfortable from UTG (BB is calling and another call on the way is likely given 7 players left). This play was from a $22/$33 and Hero's stack is fine to limp and make a decision based on the action behind.

In a $109+ raising here will take the pot preflop or get HU enough that I like that play better there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry,
I still don't get it though, do you think the non-donk will put Hero on JJ+ and still call preflop with AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I'll humor you one more time. Villain isn't a total donk.

He could be on a range of hands from 77+. Those hands could easily call in this situation if the villain is an avg player. I put him on a hand, or actually 2 hands in this case. My guess, nothing more, and awaiting the results........

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the best hand questions I've seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Unfortunately, this type of hand has been discussed on these boards a few times over the past 11 months I've been here. It's just that I keep changing, so it's good to review.

[adanthar]

I always raise to 150 PF.

On this flop...umm. Well, you don't have ten clean outs; between the times they're tainted and the times he has redraws, you've got about 8. A push may fold a J or a Q, but if his kicker is a ten he's likely to call it, and he probably didn't CC Q9s. I think I just check/fold.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I would limp pf, fold if raised. post flop I will check fold a scary board (overs, 3 to flush/str8, paired board, etc) if unders flop I will bet, if I flop set on a non-scary board I will check flop and call a raise and bet/push turn. If I flop set on a scary board I bet aggressively... assuming I am playing well..

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a horrible flop. I don't know what I do there. Sometimes I push, sometimes I check. Checking is not that bad, that is an uber scary board and villian is apt to check behind if it did not hit him thinking you could be trapping here. Pushing is not horrible since villian only has t500ish left, and the pot is 375. I think a lot here depends on how villain plays. Against an aggressive villain I am more apt to push, against a passive one I am more apt to check/fold the flop, and maybe bet the turn unimporved (though not push) or check if the flop gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I LIKE about this flop is actually the fact that I did raise UTG AND therefore since there was no more action to me PF, villain cannot put me on any sort of hand besides the fact it is a strong hand. Therefore this flop is JUST as scary to him as it is to me, unless he flopped the nuts. This all points to push...(which might make him suspect I missed horribly).

Bad news is villain is a bit short so he might feel compelled to call with a lot hands with which he might not otherwise (but are still ahead of me). this points to check fold.

So, here is another possibility that I sort of like. Since this flop is scary and one of us might have a "monster" (2pr or better), I like check folding the flop and IF he checks behind I push the turn. He could think I was trying to get him to put chips in on the flop and then when I push the turn he would know that I had it and missed my chence on the flop...he would assess his outs as less on the turn and might have a higher prob of folding.

Bottom line, the only thing completely "wrong" I could see hero doing on this flop would be doijng anything besides pushing or check/folding...between those two, I wouldnt condemn hero for either.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.

[pooh74]

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[ QUOTE ]
So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the way I was thinking about this hand: basically, is limping and having a high likliehood of wasting t50 (when 4 goto a flop) outweighed by the positive expectation of getting HU with some dead money?

I think this is fine too, but you have to decide what you are doing when all of the other possible circumstances occur. -i think we already mentioned that you are RRing allin from any raise behind, correct?

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the best hand questions I've seen. IMO, there is no right way to play it, and no wrong way. Here's my thought process, ala the way Harrington does it in HOH.

Now, I'm going to play this hand. No way I'm folding it. There are no maniacs left at this point who are going to do something stupid. There's no big stack who will push me off. My future in this SNG is now.

Depending on the table and the history, the table is at its weaksest/tightest point. The blinds aren't high and the stacks aren't spread out. Those left are waiting on "big hands." This is a very good place to play this hand.

I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ or K7 at this point in the tourney, which is least likely to happen, anyway. It would leave me with 700 chips should something bad happen behind me, like a push and a call. I can certainly live with losing a hundred. A mini-raise here doesn't necessarily show weakness. Anyone who thinks it does, I'll play.

A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it, neither of which makes me a happy camper. I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result. 75 chips more isn't going to make me a favorite and this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual and I may be crippled to the point of "it's just a matter of time," if it doesn't go my way, and there's lot of ways that aren't my way.

Limping is not an option. Too good a hand. A raise and I'm in the weeds. I'll have no idea where I am, other than out of position. I don't care for set value here, as a set would be overkill. Nice, but not reasonable.

I could push here. A semi-bluff. A little early to be changing gears, I'd rather it be the next round, but that's coming soon. They haven't seen me play many hands, and those they've seen me play, were most likely very good cards. I've got as much of a strong image at this point as I'm likely to have. Any 2 face cards and weak Ax could beat me, but it would be a pretty ballsy call and I'm ahead of them. I'm behind AA, KK, QQ, and JJ at this point, and would be very bad, but worse if I only raise. I'm even with AK and AQ. Everything else, I'm ahead, as long as it's only one caller.

A limp is out. A mini-raise and I may get 2 callers, one behind me and the BB or SB. 2 or more callers puts me at a severe disadvantage. A 3X raise puts my tournament on the line, sooner or later, regardless of the result if it's not a positive result. All in makes it likely that I'll get no more than one call. (More than one and I win, the cash register rings.) I've got a good hand in this spot, and at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.

I push it all in and take my chances.

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Before this fine hand example goes off the hotlist, would you guys do me the favor of going through my thinking and pointing out any flaws I might have in it? Aside from totally disagreeing and calling me a donk, that is. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What made this hand interesting to me is all the possibilities and going through each one. Not many hands are like this. Pretty cool.

I hope this request is ok. Thanks.

CJ

[Scuba Chuck]

Cactus, in general, there is no right or wrong way to play a lot of hands. This hand is a good example. But I'll comment on some of your thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
My future in this SNG is now.


[/ QUOTE ]


With a preflop stack of 800, I don't think this is a good thought process.

[ QUOTE ]
Those left are waiting on "big hands."

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Unless you mean those left with smallish stacks, or those thinking players left with sub 20xBB stacks, then yes, but I don't necessarily agree with this thought either. The bigger stacks have many CEV opportunities yet on this level. And in general, there's always plenty of donkeys remaining.

[ QUOTE ]
I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. I wish. I think a 3xBB raise gets called by AJ+, TJ, QJ, KQ, and maybe KJ. The non-ace hands are usually a bigger stack at this point (and usually bigger stacks at this point are donkeys/ATMs). I think it also gets called by some pairs down to 99.

[ QUOTE ]
A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding here, I think most of the time, is probably bad. I would have to have a serious read to fold here. I think the range of hands getting pushed over here (especially if it's a bigstack) is 66+/AJ+. TT has decent card equity against that range, and there's the dead chips factor.

[ QUOTE ]
Limping is not an option. Too good a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see it is an option. It really depends on your postflop and reading skills. If you limp, and somehow don't VPIP anymore, you're still left with a very workable stack. I couldn't fault anybody for limping here. I definately don't like limping here with 99 down though. With this stack, I'd feel compelled to fold those. Reason: I don't want to be in a position to put my tourney life on the line with 99- at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result

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Huh, this was really the result I was hoping for. 75 additional chips is almost a 10% stack increase.

[ QUOTE ]
...this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual ...

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well, I'd be curious how you're playing TT usually. Pre L3, this is a limp/call-a-not-to-big-a-raise-hand for me. Post L3, I play this hand very hard if I'm first to enter the post. Post L5, there's a possibility I'm battling with this hand. TT is kind of like JJ sometimes.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm even with AK and AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

You're ahead of these two hands. TT is a made hand. Where you get into trouble with pairs vs AK/AQ is pairs below 77.

[ QUOTE ]
at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is the cruxt of the post. I read a post not too long ago from Nick B (TePop) where he said that if you're going to take this attitude, then raising to 150 here, is better than pushing, as it increases the number of hands that play back at you, rather than just limiting a push-call to hands like AK/JJ+. I think that our preflop stack is very troubling as we're sort of in between what line is best. If we had an 1100 stack, I think raising to 150 and check-folding to that flop is the best line. If we have 650 or less preflop, it's time to gambool. 800-1000 is just sort of in between. FWIW, of all the lines to take, I like pushing allin preflop the worst, more than folding.

Good luck at the tables
Scuba

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?


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A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.


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Thats the way I was thinking about this hand: basically, is limping and having a high likliehood of wasting t50 (when 4 goto a flop) outweighed by the positive expectation of getting HU with some dead money?

I think this is fine too, but you have to decide what you are doing when all of the other possible circumstances occur. -i think we already mentioned that you are RRing allin from any raise behind, correct?


[/ QUOTE ]

I just think there are a lot of favorable situations that can develop when I limp here.

Sometimes I get HU with shorty allin preflop with dead chips- thats good.

Sometimes I am going to the flop with 2-4 others who have all limped where I will open push the 35% of the time that the flop is all unders and will check fold the rest. I don't mind this outcome for 50 chips preflop at all.

Sometimes I will fold preflop to heavy action after my limp. My stack is such that I'm just fine with this.

Opening to 125 or 150 decreases the chance that I'll be HU with shorty &amp; dead chips preflop and the chance that I waste these 150 chips is similar to the chance of wasting 50 chips at the $22/$33s (i.e. I am likely to get 3 to the flop when I open 150 here in a $22/$33).

Short story is I like to see what happens after my limp and act accordingly given my stack and the others involved.

[Cactus Jack]

Thanks, Chuck. That is exactly what I was hoping to get with the added benefit of more discussion about this specific time in a tourney. I really don't disagree with any of your thoughts. This was a perfect hand to post, as it really falls into the "it depends" category. A few chips here or there would make it a completely different situation all together.

One thing I would like to discuss, not take issue with because that's far too strong. Taking the 75 chips as a win vs. "loss."

The reason why I'd be disappointed--albeit only ever so slightly, probably breathing a huge sigh of relief in reality--is because there are such huge chips swings between this point and when I'm the last one left at the table. I know I'll win and lose thousands of chips before the end. I may be down to 3BB or up 30BB. 75 just ain't worth playing for, at this point, any more than 30 are worth playing for in Level 1.

I agree that I might be pulling the trigger a little early, but not terribly. I know what's coming, and I might not see a better hand before then. Again, that's what makes this such a great situation for discussion. I'm looking ahead. Most of the other players at the table have all they can say grace over just looking at the two cards in front of them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Really glad you posted this hand, and THANKS for taking the time to dissect my thought process.

CJ

[1C5]

Scuba, same situation with 50/100 blinds, you push PF right?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Scuba, same situation with 50/100 blinds, you push PF right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I have a compelling reason not too, yes.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I would like to discuss, not take issue with because that's far too strong. Taking the 75 chips as a win vs. "loss."

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should consider the core strategy of a SNG first. The core strategy to beating this game is about being an expert of small stack play. Once you come to grips with this, I think you'll find an appreciation for accumulating chips without seeing a showdown much more. If your intent is to build a pot here, in the hopes of building your stack, I absolutely think limping is better here.

[patrick dicaprio]

have to raise here you may have the best hand and are out of position and you odnt want to see overcards come with you. why limp here? there arent enough implied odds for a set and most times you may get played off the hand or will have to check fold on the flop. a 2.5-3BB raise is fine here. pushing is not out of the question if only because it may be looked at as a bluff and you may get called as a favorite at most low buy in games.

Pat

[NegativeEV]

Note, I am limping here because of the stack sizes for hero and others at the table. There are many times I would raise here, I'm not advocating limping TT as a rule- each case gets evaluated based on the table layout.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you should consider the core strategy of a SNG first. The core strategy to beating this game is about being an expert of small stack play. Once you come to grips with this, I think you'll find an appreciation for accumulating chips without seeing a showdown much more. If your intent is to build a pot here, in the hopes of building your stack, I absolutely think limping is better here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you happen to have a thread link you could point me toward? I think I know what you're talking about, but maybe not. I have no problems playing down to 5BB, but I'd rather not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Could you please expand on "core strategy"?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
have to raise here you may have the best hand and are out of position and you odnt want to see overcards come with you. why limp here? there arent enough implied odds for a set and most times you may get played off the hand or will have to check fold on the flop. a 2.5-3BB raise is fine here. pushing is not out of the question if only because it may be looked at as a bluff and you may get called as a favorite at most low buy in games.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

Pat, you can win this hand often enough without hitting your set (I think you flop unders 35-40% of the time). So using 35% plus the 12% of the time you set, you're looking at picking up a pot ~ 47% of the time (maybe optimistic). Anyhow, I'm just pointing out that limping for set value here isn't the only reason why hero limps.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

Would you happen to have a thread link you could point me toward? I think I know what you're talking about, but maybe not. I have no problems playing down to 5BB, but I'd rather not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Could you please expand on "core strategy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, sorry no. Not to be conceited. I think it's more than a small post. But the gist is that's why math is such a core part of this game vs other games. Furthermore, I'm not familiar if there is a "core strategy" post. I think it's more conceptual.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Note, I am limping here because of the stack sizes for hero and others at the table. There are many times I would raise here, I'm not advocating limping TT as a rule- each case gets evaluated based on the table layout.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol...no "note" necessary.

I like your thinking above (prev. post)...mainly because I think it "could" lead to more +EV situations than by open raising...whereas, raising may be more +EV immediately, it hits a lot of walls and is also riskier.

I know that might not make much sense, but basically, I like the risk/reward aspect of your play. I think if stacks were more even, this would have to be a raise.
gh

[NegativeEV]

I should have said there's about a 35% chance of the flop being ten high or under in my post above. I agree with your point though and the 35% chance of playing on after the flop when no one raises is just fine for this 50 IMO given the added possibilities of something nice happening preflop after I limp.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would you happen to have a thread link you could point me toward? I think I know what you're talking about, but maybe not. I have no problems playing down to 5BB, but I'd rather not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Could you please expand on "core strategy"?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, sorry no. Not to be conceited. I think it's more than a small post. But the gist is that's why math is such a core part of this game vs other games. Furthermore, I'm not familiar if there is a "core strategy" post. I think it's more conceptual.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured as much, but what the hell, I was open and I took the shot.

*sigh* more work

[raptor517]

well.. my first instinct was to make it 125, because thats what i do with TT utg normally. however, after spending more than .3 seconds looking at the hand.. i see quite a bit of value to limping. check the CO and button stacks.. that might make ya think a bit. holla

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
well.. my first instinct was to make it 125, because thats what i do with TT utg normally. however, after spending more than .3 seconds looking at the hand.. i see quite a bit of value to limping. check the CO and button stacks.. that might make ya think a bit. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand is morphing into something different than I intended. In a positive way. There's more stack management on L3 than I give credit to.

[Irieguy]

Wow, too many replies to read... so I don't know whether I'm minority or majority here.

I limp under these circumstances every time because the cut-off and button will have a wide pushing range against which you are a huge favorite.

If they don't happen to push, there's nothing wrong with playing TT OOP for a limp anyway and you don't need to go broke here.

With that flop, that's exactly what I would do: not go broke.

Irieguy

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, too many replies to read... so I don't know whether I'm minority or majority here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in the correct minority

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, too many replies to read... so I don't know whether I'm minority or majority here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in the correct minority

[/ QUOTE ]

zing. the opinions will slowly shift once all 3 of us side with a limp. bwahaha. holla

[Cactus Jack]

You guys better be careful. Somebody's going to think you pushbots are weak/tight. Ruin your reputations as maniacs. Find out what you really are...2+2 pansies.

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

CJ

[patrick dicaprio]

true enough. maybe a bit optimistic to say you will get the pot those 35% of the time. if you pick up the pot 75% of that 35% then i think the EV has to be less than raising because in that circumstance you may increase that 75% to around 90%. these are all just guesses of course. one thing that worries me about teh call is if there are aggressive players who will think you are stealing and will raise with just two overcards. in my regular game there are a few players like this.

so i guess it really comes down to your assessment of the players. just calling could be the right play in the right game.

Pat

[Cactus Jack]

That's what made this such an interesting hand, to me, anyway. I think a case can be made for any of the choices. That's what makes this game such a challenge.

CJ