27$ Bubble-"have your cake and shove it in Villain's face too"

[pooh74]

PokerStars Game #2744032480: Tournament #13468525, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/10/06 - 23:26:43 (ET)
Table '13468525 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: pooh74 (7540 in chips)
Seat 3: bigdope32 (2665 in chips)
Seat 5: dreamlab (790 in chips)
Seat 6: puddy55 (2505 in chips)
pooh74: posts the ante 25
bigdope32: posts the ante 25
dreamlab: posts the ante 25
puddy55: posts the ante 25
bigdope32: posts small blind 200
dreamlab: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pooh74 [7h 7c]
puddy55: folds
pooh74: calls 400
bigdope32: calls 200
dreamlab: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc Ad 8s]
bigdope32: checks
dreamlab: checks
pooh74: checks
*** TURN *** [Tc Ad 8s] [2c]
bigdope32: bets 400
dreamlab: folds
pooh74: raises 6715 to 7115 and is all-in
bigdope32: folds
pooh74 collected 2100 from pot
pooh74: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2100 | Rake 0
Board [Tc Ad 8s 2c]
Seat 1: pooh74 (button) collected (2100)
Seat 3: bigdope32 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: dreamlab (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: puddy55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Flame away...But I love it.

Oh and just in case you accuse me of making a brag post, i went on to take third in this little event. go me!

[lastchance]

Not pushing preflop is really, really, really dumb, and that flop shows us why.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Not pushing preflop is really, really, really dumb, and that flop shows us why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont care about what came on the flop...tell me why limping is wrong in theory.

[golfcchs]

Because you are giving away free cards and will have no idea where you are at on the flop.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you are giving away free cards and will have no idea where you are at on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh...nevermind. I wanted to get a game theory discussion going. Not discuss cards and cEV etc...

alright, Ill give a hint...how much do I stand winning on this hand fom shortie BB, and how much do the other two medium stacks have left? yes, there's math invloved.

Now, what is SB going to call my allin with on that flop or turn? Hint: I bet he had an Ace in his hand.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Now, what is SB going to call my allin with on that flop or turn? Hint: I bet he had an Ace in his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the 27s, I wouldn't make that bet too confidently.

[Sciolist]

I don't really see what game theory has to do with it. If I had 5 or 6x BB and hit top or second pair on that flop, I'm betting all my chips, and I'm most likely going to be calling if the big stack goes allin.

If you're betting Bigdope had an ace, then I'm betting that he's a horrible player.

[pergesu]

I love it too.

This is beautiful because bigdope must have a hell of a hand to call here (in theory). On top of this, losing the hand not only doesn't knock you out, but it keeps you way ahead of two other stacks.

[bawcerelli]

i don't like it. a smaller raise accomplishes the same thing and it he goes over the top you can let it go. the only thing i like about it is that it trains him to not bet flops in the future.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like it. a smaller raise accomplishes the same thing and it he goes over the top you can let it go. the only thing i like about it is that it trains him to not bet flops in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im putting bigdope to the test here with shortie left with 340 in chips. Im not giving him the option to go over the top.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see what game theory has to do with it. If I had 5 or 6x BB and hit top or second pair on that flop, I'm betting all my chips, and I'm most likely going to be calling if the big stack goes allin.

If you're betting Bigdope had an ace, then I'm betting that he's a horrible player.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then shortstack with 340 folds and he gets knocked out when he was ASSURED itm. Im betting he is not a horrible player and I would also bet you would do the same as him with Ax in that situation.

[barry111]

I really like this move. It is the perfect spot and SB has to lay anything but a monster down. Good Move.
BTW you try any of this with me and I will call you azz. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like this move. It is the perfect spot and SB has to lay anything but a monster down. Good Move.
BTW you try any of this with me and I will call you azz. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, but that time Ill have flopped the set of 7s...you see, I like to "mix it up".

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Deuce2High]

I think this play is terrible and will never work in a higher buyin game.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're betting Bigdope had an ace, then I'm betting that he's a horrible player.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this play is terrible and will never work in a higher buyin game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats funny...cas i thought it might be bad because the buyin was too low. But without explaining why you think its terrible I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Deuce2High]

I think this is an obvious play and I make a lot of chips calling down bigstacks like this.

Your cEV is huge if you just go all in. If you want some interesting game theory, lets think about it some more. Your on a bubble that you have so many chips on that you can exploit the middle stacks severly.

Change your hand to 23. I still autoshove. If the small stack calls, it doesn't matter. If he doubles up, hes still short enough to where you can continue to dominate the hell out of this bubble. By you shoving 23 you are guaranteeing the chips are going to only two people. Either you are the shorty. Either way you can keep dominating the bubble. Your making a -cEV play to protect your future cEV possibilities.

Basically, you should be shoving everything.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an obvious play and I make a lot of chips calling down bigstacks like this.

Your cEV is huge if you just go all in. If you want some interesting game theory, lets think about it some more. Your on a bubble that you have so many chips on that you can exploit the middle stacks severly.

Change your hand to 23. I still autoshove. If the small stack calls, it doesn't matter. If he doubles up, hes still short enough to where you can continue to dominate the hell out of this bubble. By you shoving 23 you are guaranteeing the chips are going to only two people. Either you are the shorty. Either way you can keep dominating the bubble. Your making a -cEV play to protect your future cEV possibilities.

Basically, you should be shoving everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. But the exact reasons you say I push for me, for this one time, I decided were wrong. If shortie doubles up, he is almost even with the the other two, if he busts, so does my exploitation potential.

IOW, when I push, shortie will ALWAYS call and either outcome will result in there no longer being a discrepency in stack size among the other 3 (or other two, depending on whether I win or not).

I can often get stacks down to below 1000 4 handed as the BS and it is well worth it to widdle them down when I feel they are weak on the bubble. I completely disagree with your reasoning, although I do agree that you cannot go "wrong" open pushing this, as i do 99% of the time.

[Deuce2High]

You can work the other three players on the bubble to &lt; 3 BB, often, in a game with antes?

If so, this is all the more reason why you should be pushing, here. If the games are that weak tight why would you ever let a medium stack see a flop?

Also, if you do happen to win against the small stack, there is honestly no need for a bubble press anymore. Your cEV is probably much higher when you raise to isolate the short stack than when you just call to induce play against a medium stack. Any good player in a higher buy-in game knows what's going on here when you don't push, and if they are calling they are calling to double up against your weak bubble play, and to 'steal' the bubble from you.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
You can work the other three players on the bubble to &lt; 3 BB, often, in a game with antes?

If so, this is all the more reason why you should be pushing, here. If the games are that weak tight why would you ever let a medium stack see a flop?

Also, if you do happen to win against the small stack, there is honestly no need for a bubble press anymore. Your cEV is probably much higher when you raise to isolate the short stack than when you just call to induce play against a medium stack. Any good player in a higher buy-in game knows what's going on here when you don't push, and if they are calling they are calling to double up against your weak bubble play, and to 'steal' the bubble from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stealing the bubble at the expense of going out 4th with a 350 stack left? Plus he still wouldnt have me covered so in essense, he couldnt exactly 'steal' the bubble anyway.

In a higher buy-in game they might not interpret a bigstack who limps as doing so with a monster, but here they might...(because I had been pushing relentlessly on the other two up until now.)

[Deuce2High]

I think this play is making chips, and making thinking plays like this is a great way to learn about the bubble. I just don't think that you can make the MOST chips this way.

You're giving the mid stack way too much first place equity by making post-flop plays.

It's probably not 'terrible' but reading 2+2 makes me mean and I'm sorry!

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this play is making chips, and making thinking plays like this is a great way to learn about the bubble. I just don't think that you can make the MOST chips this way.

You're giving the mid stack way too much first place equity by making post-flop plays.

It's probably not 'terrible' but reading 2+2 makes me mean and I'm sorry!

[/ QUOTE ]

2+2, or any other online forum is a place where people do get "mean"...i hardly ever take offense though...no apology necessary. I just like talkin poker.