flop, c/c, c/f

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Villian was taggy. I'm trying to learn when check calling the turn followed by check folding the river is correct. Any ideas about the line in a theoretical sense, is it a line you personally use? Thanks,

Krishan

[BigFishSmallCardRoom]

I don't see why you check/call the turn, and then check/fold the river when the 7 on the river is a brick. If you call the turn, you gotta call the river. Were you hoping to hit your 2-outer on the river?

[krimson]

What if villian is bluffing a missed draw that lacks showdown value?

[Ryan11]

Fold the turn or call the river. If you think you are ahead on the turn (I hope you didn't call for your 2 outer) then call the river brick. If you think you are behind on the turn then fold the turn.

[BongRips]

I fold the turn, I can really see many hands he is raising that flop with that I want to call all the way down. If I were going to call the turn, I would call that river as it is a fairly safe card.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]
Were you hoping to hit your 2-outer on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, he hopes that sometimes the river will go check, check, MHIG.

[Lost Wages]

I fold this preflop 100% against a TAG. Your hand is only going to be easy to play ~12% of the time. The other 88% of the time you are going to make a lot of mistakes; folding the best hand or calling down with the worst. You hand is an underdog against his range, he's smart enough to know that your 3-bet doesn't mean much and he's going to make good use of his position postflop.

In this hand, I think that you either fold the turn or call the river. There are only 3 overcards to your pair and none is an ace or king. Only the Queen is particularly likely to have paired your opponent.

Lost Wages

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to learn when check calling the turn followed by check folding the river is correct. Any ideas about the line in a theoretical sense, is it a line you personally use?

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan,

The c/c, c/f line has merit, but I don't think it applies to this hand. If you think he has an overpair, or hit a queen, then fold the turn. Unless you know 100% that he has A7 (I'm being facetious), then callling the turn and folding the river is a mistake. If the river had been a king or an ace and the TAG still bet, then c/c, c/f is correct here.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian was taggy. I'm trying to learn when check calling the turn followed by check folding the river is correct. Any ideas about the line in a theoretical sense, is it a line you personally use?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't call when the 7 hits (a pretty good looking card for you), why call the turn? I think I would either fold the turn or call the river - read dependent.

Edit: Wow, I guess reading the responses first to find out if you're just repeating a common sentiment would be a good idea next time.

[rory]

You have to enumerate the hands he could have. The way it works out is that if he would play a T fast on the flop a reasonable amount of the time, you should probably fold the river. It is because the possibility of him having a T almost doubles his hand range, if you put his hand range on the flop as any flush draw (67s+, T8s+, Q8s+) or any pocket pair less than JJ (because of the no preflop cap). I am too busy to count them out but write it out you will see, it is pretty amazing. It is because each combination adds 8 possible hands that beat you, and there are a ton of them he could have.

[rory]

pokerstove should have some tweaks in it-- i dunno if andrew reads this forum... but anyway, it should have a whole postflop section-- it would make it so much more useful.

like there should be buttons where i put on the board and i just click (flush draw, any pocket pair, two pair, top pair, second pair) etc. and it selects all of those hands for me. as it is you have to manually go through and select each and every hand and it takes forever if their hand range is wide. it would become a more useful postflop analysis tool if it had this sort of functionality based on the board.

[Lmn55d]

Krishan, I have seen guys with good "TAG" stats do some ridiculous things, especially against others they perceive to be TAGS. And this happens a lot. They love to pull moves. Because of this, I try to shy away from the check/call turn, check/fold river. I know guys like sthief use it a lot, but I just don't trust the TAGS in this game. You'd think, yea he won't fire 2 bluffs or if he has an ace he'd check behind. Unless I know for a fact that the guy plays solidly I don't like making these assumptions though.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
like there should be buttons where i put on the board and i just click (flush draw, any pocket pair, two pair, top pair, second pair) etc. and it selects all of those hands for me. as it is you have to manually go through and select each and every hand and it takes forever if their hand range is wide. it would become a more useful postflop analysis tool if it had this sort of functionality based on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be very useful. It would also be incredibly helpful if you could do some sort of Bayesian discounting based on assigned probabilities for certain actions. For instance, if you could specify in this example that he only bluffs the river 60% of the time with the busted flushes. That's what would really start to refine the analysis.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
pokerstove should have some tweaks in it-- i dunno if andrew reads this forum... but anyway, it should have a whole postflop section-- it would make it so much more useful.

like there should be buttons where i put on the board and i just click (flush draw, any pocket pair, two pair, top pair, second pair) etc. and it selects all of those hands for me. as it is you have to manually go through and select each and every hand and it takes forever if their hand range is wide. it would become a more useful postflop analysis tool if it had this sort of functionality based on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree man, it takes forever and ever to input those ranges in. your suggestions would make it so much more practical.....would be a great improvement.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the turn, I can really see many hands he is raising that flop with that I want to call all the way down.

[/ QUOTE ]
He can be raising just about a million hands on that flop. There's no way I fold there.

Krishan, I figure you were hoping for a river check behind with unimproved overs, but I don't think this is the board for. The fact that its so dry, and you have shown relatively little strength, may mean he is value-betting his AK on the end. I think the flop bet may have looked like a feeler bet from a hand that needed improvement, where a check-raise would have indicated more strength (and let you get away a bit more cheaply if 3bet).

Thoughts?

[rory]

no preflop cap so AK is not likely

[Guruman]

why not check/call the flop and turn, and lead the river (folding to a raise)?

This wins us the most from UI overcards, and loses the least from an overpair, a T or a Q. Villain will auto-bet the flop with any 2, and if he's not likely to check through on that turn when he can represent the Q and the T.

horrible?